Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #1  
Old 02-09-2008, 11:46 AM
1611isperfect
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Smile A VERY challenging question



I was wondering what you guys believe about the '1611' vs. '1769' edition argument? I've heard it often. Mostly by liberals that use the modern versions. Which edition of the King James is PERFECTLY perfect, and how do we prove it.

By the way, I believe the King James is God's perfect word. But which edition? I am not sure yet. I hope that someone can give me some help.

ALSO: Whichever is God's word... I want it.



Last edited by 1611isperfect; 02-09-2008 at 11:51 AM.
  #2  
Old 02-09-2008, 12:01 PM
jerry
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You can read these two articles to learn about the differences between the 1611 and the 1769:

Myth Of Early Revisions - by David Reagan
What About Those Printing Errors In The 1611 Holy Bible? - by Will Kinney
  #3  
Old 02-09-2008, 01:02 PM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Those are both good articles. There are three points I want to make:

1. The Holy Spirit has led believers over the last 400 years to declare the purity of the King James Bible -- no other translation in history has ever been held to as absolutely pure. God's people have easily rejected revisions of the KJV that were false -- the RV, the NKJV, and others have either been outright rejected or simply became colossal commercial failures. Despite the defense of the NKJV going on in another thread, nobody has ever accused it of being the perfect word of God. Even subtle "updates" to the KJV have been rejected by believers, like the "New Scofield Reference Bible" which they are now once again printing with the true KJV text because so many people rejected the "minor" alterations of the first "New" Scofield. Another new "edition" of the KJV is Norton's "New Cambridge Paragraph Bible" which is another flop. Publishers haven't been able to pull a fast one on KJV believers in the past. They know that if they want to sell new versions they need to market them as new versions to the crowd that demands them, not KJV proponents.

2. The differences in genuine KJV editions have never been of the sort that makes people wonder what God's word actually says -- not like eliminating 1Jo 5:7 or dropping the last 12 verses of Mark. When KJVs were published with printing errors like "the wicked Bible," people immediately knew what God's word said and subsequent editions contained corrections. Nobody asked "did God really say 'thou shalt commit adultery?'" due to a printing error.

3. Are some printings of the KJV better than others? Yes. Wherever possible I will prefer the KJV text as it was printed by Cambridge (and other publishers like Collins) c.1900. But what is different between those editions and other printings? A few capital letters, some commas moved, and difference in italics in a few places. When we have modern versions deleting entire verses and changing words like "God" to "He who" (in reference to Christ), a difference between "flieth away" and "fleeth away" in some KJV printings hardly amounts to a bean, let alone a hill of beans.

The bottom line is that I would take any printing of the KJV since 1611 and be willing to shout "this is God's word and you can trust it!"

The "update" issue is always a red herring on the part of modernists. They aren't seeking to "update" the KJV when they hold its underlying text (the Textus Receptus) is absolute contempt, and switch it out for the critical texts.
  #4  
Old 02-20-2008, 01:07 PM
sting of truth
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i got a cornberstone bible, holman bible, thompson chain, and a zondervan. all kjv, and out of they all match up as far as i know with the exception of the zondervan. the zondervan is using an 1873 edition of the cambridge paragraph bible, but it was revised by dr. f.h.a. scrivener and i've found where only halfa word will be printed. such as but not limited to at least 14 times where the words fetchd-fetched-fetcht-fetch have been changed to "fet".. it's just the kjv thatzondervan uses, so now i don't like the zondervan kjv text. i just got my thompson chain reference, and that bible is awesome, as is my cornerstone, and holman
  #5  
Old 02-20-2008, 06:59 PM
Beth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diligent View Post
Those are both good articles. There are three points I want to make:

1. The Holy Spirit has led believers over the last 400 years to declare the purity of the King James Bible -- no other translation in history has ever been held to as absolutely pure. God's people have easily rejected revisions of the KJV that were false -- the RV, the NKJV, and others have either been outright rejected or simply became colossal commercial failures. Despite the defense of the NKJV going on in another thread, nobody has ever accused it of being the perfect word of God. Even subtle "updates" to the KJV have been rejected by believers, like the "New Scofield Reference Bible" which they are now once again printing with the true KJV text because so many people rejected the "minor" alterations of the first "New" Scofield. Another new "edition" of the KJV is Norton's "New Cambridge Paragraph Bible" which is another flop. Publishers haven't been able to pull a fast one on KJV believers in the past. They know that if they want to sell new versions they need to market them as new versions to the crowd that demands them, not KJV proponents.

2. The differences in genuine KJV editions have never been of the sort that makes people wonder what God's word actually says -- not like eliminating 1Jo 5:7 or dropping the last 12 verses of Mark. When KJVs were published with printing errors like "the wicked Bible," people immediately knew what God's word said and subsequent editions contained corrections. Nobody asked "did God really say 'thou shalt commit adultery?'" due to a printing error.

3. Are some printings of the KJV better than others? Yes. Wherever possible I will prefer the KJV text as it was printed by Cambridge (and other publishers like Collins) c.1900. But what is different between those editions and other printings? A few capital letters, some commas moved, and difference in italics in a few places. When we have modern versions deleting entire verses and changing words like "God" to "He who" (in reference to Christ), a difference between "flieth away" and "fleeth away" in some KJV printings hardly amounts to a bean, let alone a hill of beans.

The bottom line is that I would take any printing of the KJV since 1611 and be willing to shout "this is God's word and you can trust it!"

The "update" issue is always a red herring on the part of modernists. They aren't seeking to "update" the KJV when they hold its underlying text (the Textus Receptus) is absolute contempt, and switch it out for the critical texts.
Is the KJB perfect? I think we open up a can of worms when we make statements like that? But I could be wrong also?

How about the KJB is the most reliable translation of the Received Text, (the most reliable Greek mss) in the English language. I'm sure there is a better way to say what I attempted to say?
  #6  
Old 02-20-2008, 07:56 PM
jerry
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The KJV is perfect - there are no errors in it. If someone has a Bible version that is not perfect, they don't have the Word of God, because the Bible itself claims to be perfect:

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

The word "perfect" means complete - but it also has the idea of without blemish, without spot:

The word used for perfect in the verse above is:

from 8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth:--without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness.

The King James Bible is perfect. It is without errors or contradictions.
  #7  
Old 02-21-2008, 12:47 AM
Beth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry View Post
The KJV is perfect - there are no errors in it. If someone has a Bible version that is not perfect, they don't have the Word of God, because the Bible itself claims to be perfect:

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

The word "perfect" means complete - but it also has the idea of without blemish, without spot:

The word used for perfect in the verse above is:

from 8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth:--without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness.

The King James Bible is perfect. It is without errors or contradictions.
I guess I was thinking that there could be places where the translation made was not perfect. I don't know of any places where this is the case, I just wasn't sure if I could make the statement that the KJV is perfect and be able to back it up.

Although, I agree with what you are saying. I certainly agree that this definition of perfect would apply to the KJV
Quote:
from 8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth:--without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole.
I thought this portion of this article would help with the OP.
Quote:
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/whichtr.htm
3. Which edition of the Received Text should we follow today? Edward F. Hills, who had a doctorate in modern textual criticism from Harvard, made the following important statement in regard to the KJV and the Received Text:

“The King James Version is a variety of the Textus Receptus. The translators that produced the King James Version relied mainly, it seems, on the later editions of Beza's Greek New Testament, especially his 4th edition (1588-9). But also they frequently consulted the editions of Erasmus and Stephanus and the Complutensian Polyglot. According to Scrivener (1884), out of the 252 passages in which these sources differ sufficiently to affect the English rendering, the King James Version agrees with Beza against Stephanus 113 times, with Stephanus against Beza 59 times, and 80 times with Erasmus, or the Complutensian, or the Latin Vulgate against Beza and Stephanus. HENCE THE KING JAMES VERSION OUGHT TO BE REGARDED NOT MERELY AS A TRANSLATION OF THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS BUT ALSO AS AN INDEPENDENT VARIETY OF THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS....

“BUT WHAT DO WE DO IN THESE FEW PLACES IN WHICH THE SEVERAL EDITIONS OF THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS DISAGREE WITH ONE ANOTHER? WHICH TEXT DO WE FOLLOW? THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION IS EASY. WE ARE GUIDED BY THE COMMON FAITH. HENCE WE FAVOR THAT FORM OF THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS UPON WHICH MORE THAN ANY OTHER GOD, WORKING PROVIDENTIALLY, HAS PLACED THE STAMP OF HIS APPROVAL, NAMELY, THE KING JAMES VERSION, OR, MORE PRECISELY, THE GREEK TEXT UNDERLYING THE KING JAMES VERSION. This text was published in 1881 by the Cambridge University Press under the editorship of Dr. Scrivener, and there have been eight reprints, the latest being in 1949 [DWC: It has since been republished by the Trinitarian Bible Society of London, England, and the Dean Burgon Society of Collingswood, New Jersey.] We ought to be grateful that in the providence of God the best form of the Textus Receptus is still available to believing Bible students” (Edward F. Hills, The King James Version Defended, 4th edition, pp. 220, 223).

We agree with Dr. Hills’ position.

The exact Greek text underlying the King James Bible was reconstructed by Frederick Scrivener under the direction of the Cambridge University Press and published in 1891. It is republished today by the Trinitarian Bible Society in England as well as the Dean Burgon Society in America.
  #8  
Old 02-25-2008, 09:08 AM
Pastor Mikie
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From my own study of this issue, the 1769 edition is how the 1611 was intended. The editions weren't revisions, they correcting spelling and other printing-press problems.

Some people think that because the translators didn't say their work was inspired or perfect doen't mean it wasn't. Look at 1st Corinthinas 7. Paul said that he sometimes spoke from direct commandment from the Lord, at other times he was just giving his judgment. Does that mean the things he said by his own judment weren't inspired Scripture? Peter said in 2nd Peter 3:16 that what Paul wrote was Scripture.

This brings up another question: Paul wrote a lot more letters than what is preserved in the Bible. Somehow God was able to get the right things into the holy Scriptures. By that reckoning, those who don't believe a translation can be inspired have a serious gap in their reasoning. They believe God inspired the "originals". They believe God was able to get the correct books and epistles into the canon of Scripture, but somehow couldn't see to it the Bible was translated correctly. So the question might be asked, "Why did it take 158 years to get the "bugs" out?" Simple: Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them...This also answers the question about "Where was the English Bible before 1611?" I honestly believe God worked with Tyndale. I don't believe God worked with any of the modern translators. I don't see any proof of it, especially since the "errors" are intentional and deliberate.

Again I ask, if the KJB isn't God's Word preserved in English, which one of the over 300 English versions is? They all say different things. They can't all be right. I believe the AV1611 has Proven itself over and over again. What the opponents of this belief offer is nothing, because to them, there is no perfect English Bible.
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:55 AM
jerry
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Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie View Post
Look at 1st Corinthinas 7. Paul said that he sometimes spoke from direct commandment from the Lord, at other times he was just giving his judgment. Does that mean the things he said by his own judment weren't inspired Scripture? Peter said in 2nd Peter 3:16 that what Paul wrote was Scripture.
Consider this: Paul did not give personal opinions - but declared whether what he was stating was something Jesus addressed previously or not during His public ministry. All that he said in 1 Corinthians was Scripture inspired directly by God - but not all that he dealt with was previously addressed in the Gospels.

1 Corinthians 7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. (ie. not by previous commands given in Jesus' sermons/discourses)

1 Corinthians 7:10-11 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. (Jesus previously addressed the issue of divorce and remarriage)

1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. (Now he is given new instruction, not previously addressed by Jesus.)

1 Corinthians 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. (Jesus never addressed this during His public ministry)

1 Corinthians 7:40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. (Peter confirms that all that Paul wrote was given by God)

The rest of Paul's statements in that chapter would fit under either category (either giving new revelation or building upon something the Lord had already addressed publicly)
  #10  
Old 02-25-2008, 09:06 PM
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From my own study of this issue, the 1769 edition is how the 1611 was intended.
Yes, but there has been some slight changes since 1769 in the Cambridge Edition. E.g. 1769 has "Beer-sheba, Sheba" at Joshua 19:2. Oxford now has "Beer-sheba, and Sheba", while Cambridge has "Beer-sheba, or Sheba". So, the correct form or edition is the Pure Cambridge Edition.

Quote:
The editions weren't revisions, they correcting spelling and other printing-press problems.
I would call correcting spelling and printing press problems by editors a "revision", but not the kind of revision that actually changes the work (e.g. underlying text and translation), it is just really things like copy-editing.

Quote:
Some people think that because the translators didn't say their work was inspired or perfect doen't mean it wasn't.
Yes, but the Word of God was only given once by inspiration, and everything else is copies. We have preservation of the original inspiration in the KJB, not re-inspiration. The people who see the King James Bible as perfect should see it so because of divine providence (the God who is powerful enough to use earthly means to get the Word from what Paul wrote to be chosen and correctly rendered by the KJB translators), not because of some theory that the translators were "inspired" from 1604-1611.

Quote:
Again I ask, if the KJB isn't God's Word preserved in English, which one of the over 300 English versions is? They all say different things. They can't all be right. I believe the AV1611 has Proven itself over and over again. What the opponents of this belief offer is nothing, because to them, there is no perfect English Bible.
I agree. The KJB is exactly perfect. No exactly jot and tittle perfect Bible exists in any other language or other English Bible, though there are (or have been) many good Bibles around, e.g. TR editions, Geneva, Luther, R-V Spanish, etc. etc.
 

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