[George]

Originally Posted by jerry

Ruckman knocks Cloud in his own books.

The Bible commands us and teaches us to be discerning - to compare everything taught by anyone with the Word of God itself. I have a problem with Ruckman because some of his teachings do NOT line up with the Word of God - and out of obedience, I take note of that warn others about it.

Sorry, I don't believe in the lovey-feel good Christianity that says let everyone believe and do what they want as long as we call them our brethren. The Bible teaches us to be discerning and expose what does not line up. I am doing so. Sorry if you refuse to heed your Bible in this area.

Brother Ruckman doesn't have a whole page on his web site devoted to criticizing and bashing brother Cloud - But David Cloud has an entire page on his web site criticizing and bashing brother Ruckman. (That speaks "volumes" about the difference between the two men!)

My previous post was not in reference to "discerning", it is in reference to "judging" You have a "knack" for ignoring the salient points of others and hastily judging them without much evidence i.e. your quote in reference to me:

"Sorry if you refuse to heed your Bible in this area". - underlines are mine.{George}

If you refuse to read and check out brother Ruckman's works (first hand) and instead rely on others for your information about him you can't possibly judge him fairly or righteously ("hearsay" is not allowed in a "court of law" - why would you rely on it when judging a fellow Christian?)

I don't believe in the "lovey-feel good Christianity", and if you are accusing me of holding that view come out and say it. "Real men say what they mean, and mean what they say"! I've been a Christian for 50 years and in that whole time no one, I repeat, no one has ever accused me of being a "lovey-feel good" kind of Christian. All you have to do is read my posts on this Forum or my essays and lessons on my web site and you would know better - but on the other hand maybe you would prefer to "judge" me by "hearsay" also? I've been called many things in the last 50 years - but I've never been accused of being soft! I'm offended!

But on a serious note: You might just consider that I have been aware of the King James issue and the "players" involved since 1968; I believe that I read where you came upon the "issue" about 1998 or so - do you think it possible that I "might" know just a "little" more than you about who and what is involved in this debate, if I have had an approximately 30 year head start on you?

You weren't around in 1968 or 1978 or 1988 fighting this battle when Edward Hills, J. J. Ray, David Otis Fuller, and Peter Ruckman were practically the only ones around that were contending for the faith in "The Book", and practically all of the so-called Christian schools (and Christian "scholars" - scribes) were ignoring Hills, Ray, and Fuller - but they couldn't "ignore" Ruckman! He wouldn't let them!

If you are ignorant of this time, you shouldn't be so hasty to condemn a man, whom I know - because I witnessed it "first hand"; that God used (despite his many "faults) mightily in the defense of His Holy Word. You weren't there, you didn't observe or experience what happened - I did. How quickly God's people forget, or worse yet - never bother to inquire.

Today there are many men of God that now take a strong stand for the King James Bible - back then there were only a small handful of men that stood against the "Tide" of "Unbelieving Christian Scholarship" and many of them were not very effective, but Peter Ruckman was. I know this to be true because I was there - and you weren't. "Discern" all you want brother (I notice that in your post that you avoided the word - "Judge"), but I would advise you to be "careful" when you "judge" a brother in Christ - whom you do not know.

[toiwnz]

I've come to notice something about these forums. Like most things, they have a good and bad aspects to them. The good thing is that they allow Christian brothers and sisters to come together to discuss their trials and tribulations. It also lets them tell of the work God is doing in their lives. It gives them an opportunity to up lift each other and let elders give advice. The bad thing about it is negative comments that come along with it. I often read post where one brother is railing on another brother or sister. There are bigger things in the world that Christian brothers and sisters should be dealing with besides who said what about them. There are millions of widows, fatherless children, poor, imprisoned, hungry, and thirsty people out there that we should be reaching instead of arguing with each other. One thing we soon forget is that there is an enemy out there. He is the one the fight against. Not with each other. In Jude 4 he talks about men that crept in unaware to the people. Well these forums allow an opportunity for the enemy to creep in and try to cause confusion and mallace between brothers and sisters.

My point is we need to concern ourselves with the things of the Lord. Such go out into the world and preaching the gospel. Feeding the poor. Visiting the prisoners. Taking care of the widows and fatherless. Exposing the false teachers in the churches. Looking for the coming of our Lord. Fighting each other is not one. The forums have a good purpose behind it but with the absent of elders who everybody is accountable to then we have arguments and fights and false doctrines creeping in. Brothers and sisters let's stop fighting and use these forums to uplift each other, tell about fights with the enemy, give advice to the babe's in Christ, and just tell about the Goodness of the Lord in our lives.

(sorry about the spelling and punctuation)

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by George

You weren't around in 1968 or 1978 or 1988 fighting this battle when Edward Hills, J. J. Ray, David Otis Fuller, and Peter Ruckman were practically the only ones around that were contending for the faith in "The Book", and practically all of the so-called Christian schools (and Christian "scholars" - scribes) were ignoring Hills, Ray, and Fuller - but they couldn't "ignore" Ruckman! He wouldn't let them!
If you are ignorant of this time, you shouldn't be so hasty to condemn a man, whom I know - because I witnessed it "first hand"; that God used (despite his many "faults) mightily in the defense of His Holy Word. You weren't there, you didn't observe or experience what happened - I did. How quickly God's people forget, or worse yet - never bother to inquire.

Thanks for the info, George! This almost led me to tears.Praise God for such a man, despite of the critics, remained true to his calling. Amen!

Ok, I didn't mean for this thread to turn into another bashing/defense of Cloud/Ruckman so if you can all just take it back to the "other Dr. Ruckman thread" please do so because I meant this to be a study of UFOs as a Satan ploy to decieve people (as I am also sick of reading that thread anyways and no way do I want to have started a clone...) But I did just ordered the "Black is Beautiful" book so I will be seeing for myself as some people obviously wouldn't.

Discerning IS judging - it is judging whether something is right or wrong, whether it lines up with the Bible or not - whether it comes from God or not.

No, I don't need to know Ruckman for 40 years, read 100 of his books, and know his birthdate and favourite ice cream flavour to be able to discern what I have read of his. I can't judge ALL of his material, but I can certainly judge what I have already read and been exposed to - and form my own conclusion on what the rest must be like based on what I have already seen and read.

OK, I'll come back to UFOs. I've believed for years that they are a satanic deception, but only recently have been paying attention to how they are probably designed for a particular objective to unfold in the times of the Antichrist. This is related to the doctrine of the "Ascended Masters" that was originally taught by the 19th and early 20th century spiritualists and satanists like Madame Blavatsky, Alice Bailey and Alistair Crowley. These "Ascended Masters" are demons who conveyed their doctrines to Blavatsky at least and maybe also Bailey (I haven't followed all the details of this).

They aren't considered by the believers in this stuff to be demons of course, but superior beings, extraterrestrials who are supposed to have planted the seeds of the human race at some time in the past and have been watching over us and are probably going to appear in some form in the last days because we "need help" or something like that. Among New Agers apparently this idea has been continuing, especially since some of them do "channel" (are possessed by) demonic spirits who continue to preach the same old doctrines of demons. The number of people who are possessed by demons in this world has probably increased enormously since the 60s and 70s.

A Course in Miracles that Oprah Winfrey has been sponsoring on daily radio broadcasts since the first of this year is supposed to be an example of the superior wisdom of these superior beings -- Stuff like: You are the source of your own salvation, Jesus came not to die for us but to teach us wisdom, we aren't sinners so the idea of an atonement for sin is ridiculous and childish, and various other similar blasphemies.

I've been getting this mostly from Scott Johnson's talks which he posts at Sermon Audio. I know some of his stuff is pretty far out but he provides plenty of documentation, and even if some of it is off the wall or turns out to be false I'm sure he's on the right track. If even part of it is true as he teaches it, the signs and wonders that will probably suddenly burst upon this planet are going to take our breath away.

He also believes that the Nephilim of the Bible are somehow involved in this, the "mighty men of old" who were the offspring of angels and humans. He tracks what the media are doing, TV programs -- stuff most of us probably have never heard of, at least I hadn't -- that are promoting characters that are nonhuman or part human.

No need here to get into the specifics, I guess, you can always go and listen to Johnson's talks. The point is that UFOs are most likely part of the great delusion that is coming on the earth, when all the world except those who are the Lord's will follow the Antichrist, who will preside over some amazing "revelation" of things most people have never even thought about but is really a massive satanic deception.

So the fiction will be that UFOs are these benevolent beings who have been spying on us and supposedly have our best interests at heart and so on and so forth, and maybe have even been involved in genetic experiments so that there will be a return of the Nephilim. I don't know how much of the specifics we can know in advance, but it seems like a good idea to have in mind that some kind of spectacular strange phenomena are in the devil's plans and abilities for the near future, and UFOs are a part of them.

Of course God is in charge of all of it. It is God who is going to bring the strong delusion on those who will believe in all this. But we should be praying and probably fasting, stepping up our pleas to the unsaved, and learning how to keep our armor well fastened if we are to be here for any of it.

[George]

Re: brother Jerry's Post #25

Discerning IS judging - it is judging whether something is right or wrong, whether it lines up with the Bible or not - whether it comes from God or not.

No, I don't need to know Ruckman for 40 years, read 100 of his books, and know his birthdate and favourite ice cream flavour to be able to discern what I have read of his. I can't judge ALL of his material, but I can certainly judge what I have already read and been exposed to - and form my own conclusion on what the rest must be like based on what I have already seen and read.

Sorry brother Tim,

I'll get off this thread after this.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary

DISCERN, v.t. s as z. L., to separate or distinguish, Gr.

1. To separate by the eye, or by the understanding. Hence,

2. To distinguish; to see the difference between two or more things; to discriminate; as, to discern the blossom-buds from the leaf-buds of plants.

Discern thou what is thine--Genesis 31.

3. To make the difference.

For nothing else discerns the virtue or the vice.

4. To discover; to see; to distinguish by the eye.

I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding. Proverbs 7.

5. To discover by the intellect; to distinguish; hence, to have knowledge of; to judge.

So is my lord the king to discern good and bad. 2 Samuel 14.

A wise mans heart discerneth time and judgment. Ecclesiastes 8.

DISCERN, v.i.

1. To see or understand the difference; to make distinction; as, to discern between good and evil, truth and falsehood.

2. To have judicial cognizance.



Once again you have avoided dealing with most of the points in my post, and instead you have managed to trivialize my testimony with:

"I don't need to know Ruckman for 40 years, read 100 of his books, and know his birthdate and favourite ice cream flavour to be able to discern what I have read of his."

{When you won't or can't handle dealing with legitimate points you either ignore them or come up with some "cutesy" remark in order to deflect attention away from a fact or the truth - reminds me of some of my kids when they were growing up!}

According to Webster's: Discerning is separating or distinguishing a matter; i.e. between "good " and "evil", etc. Discerning is not "JUDGING" another brother in Christ! You can't "cherry pick" your own "private interpretation" of a word any more than you are supposed to "privately interpret" Scripture. {Oh, you can try - but I'll be here to continually remind you.}

Your continual bashing of brother Ruckman is NOT so much "discerning" a matter; as it is JUDGING another brother in Christ and his "Ministry" and that is what I have been objecting to for several weeks now - and you don't seem to "get" the difference.

Discern all you want,

Please answer these two questions:

#1. Is brother Peter Ruckman a "FALSE TEACHER"?

#2. Is brother Peter Ruckman a "HERETIC?"

If he is either of the above, say so and then PROVE it - not by mere "accusations" or statements taken out of context, but by cold hard facts.

If he is not a "False Teacher" or a "Heretic", then why, (every time his name shows up on this Forum) do you not hesitate to take another "crack" at him personally?

You are not just "discerning" between right and "wrong", I would have no problem with that. No, this is "personal"; this is more than just "discernment" - this is a personal "vendetta" (on your part) against a man who God has used (my first hand personal testimony); and whom you know little or nothing about; but whom you continually slander, malign, and impugn.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

A word to the wise should be sufficient - but on the other hand . . . . . ?

I've recently re-read a great book called 'Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection' by Gary Bates. Gary is a Christian/creationist who has studied the subject for years and his book is well documented and referenced.
Among his observations are:
The messages from 'aliens' seek to re-interpret the Bible. Never the Bhaghavad Gita, nor the Koran, but always the Bible. This gives us a clue as to who is behind these visitations.
Throughout history, these appearances has taken the forms familiar to the cultures to which they appeared (canoes, shields, etc).

There is too much information in this book to go into great detail; all I can say is that I highly recommend it. It is available from Creation Ministries International.

Hope this helps.

Yours in Him

DISCERN, v.t. s as z. L., to separate or distinguish, Gr.

2. To distinguish; to see the difference between two or more things; to discriminate; as, to discern the blossom-buds from the leaf-buds of plants.

1. To see or understand the difference; to make distinction; as, to discern between good and evil, truth and falsehood.

Right - and I am discerning between what is said by a Bible teacher or preacher and comparing it to the Bible - as God commands me. Sorry you have a problem with that - but I guess that would be YOUR problem, as I choose to continue to obey the Lord and critique all that is taught supposedly from the Word of God, and I am not going to feel guilted into thinking I am doing wrong because others won't apply those passages to their pet teachers or doctrines.

Philippians 1:9-10 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Oh oh, there's that word again!

Hebrews 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Make you a deal: you stop trying to badger me and tell me I have no right to critique Ruckman or anyone else, and I will stop DEFENDING my Biblical right AND RESPONSIBILITY to do so. The issue isn't even Ruckman - though he is the one being discussed - the issue is does God command us to be discerning of those teaching Bible doctrine? Yes, He does; therefore I do.

The book by Gary Bates sounds like a good source of information.

The messages from 'aliens' seek to re-interpret the Bible. Never the Bhaghavad Gita, nor the Koran, but always the Bible. This gives us a clue as to who is behind these visitations.

Throughout history, these appearances has taken the forms familiar to the cultures to which they appeared (canoes, shields, etc).

Yes, the nonChristian researcher Jacques Vallee had noticed this fact, that the appearances stick within the technological experiences of a particular culture. They came from "space" in the century when people were thinking about space travel, but never in that form earlier. Now, if Vallee had also noticed that the messages attack only the Bible, as you say Bates points out, he'd be in a good position to become a Christian himself.