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#261
04-26-2008, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Aloha brother Sammy, A word of caution: I would be very careful in a debate or discussion over Scripture in advancing your point using a "grammatical" argument. No. 1 - because there are no examples of such a "method" in the Holy Scriptures themselves; and No. 2 - because these are points made "academically" with the "intellect" (the mind) and not with the heart. {See my Post #1 Rejection of God's Words = EVIL - under "Bible Studies" - this Forum; or my study on "the heart of the matter" on my web page.} In America we have far too much "intellectual" Christianity (grounded in Academia and based on the "mind"); and far too little Biblical Christianity (grounded on the Scriptures, and based on the heart). Please remember that we believe with our heart NOT our mind: Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. We are to hide God's word in our heart NOT our mind: Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. We are to diligently "keep" our "heart" NOT our mind: Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. All of the "issues of life" proceed from out of our "heart" NOT our mind: Matthew 12:34 . . . for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. The Bible testimony is clear: All of mankind has a "heart problem". We are all born with a deceitful and wicked "heart": Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? By now you might be asking what's the point? the point is while we are born with a deceitful "heart" we have to work on, or "mold" the "mind" in order to "corrupt" it (and that's where the wrong kind of "schooling" or "education" comes in). For nearly 2,000 years, apostasy in God's churches has "always" been introduced and promoted by the academic "elites", the "intellectual class" (without one exception!). 2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. [1Timothy 6:5; 2 Timothy 3:8] IF the following quote is true: Quote:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Can you substitute "believe" for "faith"? I think not. Unless we are to believe that our "belief" is a gift from God. We are saved through "faith", and "it" {"faith"} is God's "gift" to us because we "heard" the word of God and "believed" in our hearts (the Gospel of the Grace of God) and He "gifted" us with "faith" - His "faith" NOT ours. It's our "belief" - it's His "faith". I cannot see how they can possibly be "the same". Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: We obtained like precious "faith" (God's precious "gift" to us) by "believing" in our "hearts", after we heard the Gospel of the Grace of God. I know that there also plenty of verses that talk about our "faith" in the Lord Jesus Christ, but the preceding verses tell us where our "faith" came from - it's a "gift" from God {the Lord Jesus Christ "earned it - it was His "faith" that persevered - it's His to give} - it's ours - but it came from God because we believed! Respectfully submitted, Your brother in Christ, George |
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#262
04-26-2008, 07:07 PM
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Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The gift is salvation - not the faith. The faith is our response to that salvation/gift offered and the Lord Jesus Christ. |
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#263
04-27-2008, 04:41 AM
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Hello, Bro. George!
I respectfully disagree that the "grammatical" method should be done away with. Paul uses this method at times. Here's an example where he makes a doctrine out of the singular and plural forms of a word: Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Concerning faith and belief, or faith and believe, they are not always synonymous, but they are synonyms. Furthermore, we know that there is more than one "kind" faith. There is a personal "faith" which is different from the "faith of Christ" (the ONLY saving faith today). I believe the faith in Ephesians 2:8 refers to the faith of Christ, while John 20:29 refers to the faith of Thomas. Yours in Christ, Bro. Sammy 1Cor.15:58 Last edited by Biblestudent; 04-27-2008 at 04:43 AM. |
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#264
04-27-2008, 10:07 AM
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Not so fast! Part 6 - A
Quote:
One thing that has absolutely baffled me over the years is how certain of the most familiar passages in the bible can be read over and over with the most evident of truths presented therein ignored. The following is such a passage with a conclusion, of sorts, to Paul’s argument he started in the beginning chapters regarding the distinction between righteousness under law and righteousness without law: Rom 10:4-10 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Here are seven points extracted from this passage that properly sums up the contrast between justification ‘by faith’ and ‘through faith’ and righteousness ‘of law’ and ‘of faith’ that I’ve been making to this point: 1. A purpose of the law was for righteousness (v4) 2. OT righteousness came about from man doing the things contained in the law (v5) 3. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (v4) 4. Righteousness today is obtained by believing (v4) 5. Righteousness today is of faith (v6) 6. Of faith today is expressed through confession and believing (v9) 7. The ‘doeth’ principle under the law for righteousness is held in direct contrast to the ‘believeth’ principle unto righteousness for salvation today (vv 5, 10). The notion that… “Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3:24) was an OT reality, as it is a reality today, is simply biblically illogical. OT righteousness was a continuous living reality. Job, as priest over his household, offered burnt offerings continually for his sons in case they sinned (Job 1:5), and though the blood of bulls and goats and the sprinkling the ashes of an heifer sanctified to the purifying of the flesh (Heb 9:11-14), the doing of such by Israel’s priesthood was a yearly remembrance (Heb 10:1-3), because unlike the sacrifice of Christ which ‘put away sin’ (Heb 9:25-26), the blood of bulls and goats could not ‘take away sins’ (Heb 10:4). The blood principle under the OT was pay as you go. The NT blood principle is…PAID! Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. David well said… Psalms 106:3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times. The only real life ‘work’ element of ‘by faith’ that I’ve focused on so far through these posts has been that of the blood offerings from Abel on through Israel’s history. I will fine tune this ‘works’ issue when dealing with David in context of Romans 4. Admittedly Jerry… Romans 4 is some tricky reading where Paul makes his case for Abraham being father of both Jew and Gentile (Rom 4:11-16); the Jew being justified ‘by faith’, while the Gentile ‘through faith’ (Rom 3:30), the later falling under the category of ‘of faith’ (Rom 10:6, 8). Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,As promised, I will show you how and when Abraham fills the father role for each… Jew and Gentile. This post deals with Abraham, the father of the circumcision ‘by faith’. From a Hebrew’s viewpoint this lineage is easily traceable, as well as obvious… Hebrews 11:8-9 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: Jerry… (This is important!) Abraham was a bona fide OT saint when called out of the land of the Ur of the Chaldees! Abraham, as typical as any OT saint who walked ‘by faith’ till his time (Abel, Noah, Job, etc.), was righteous before God between Gen 12-15 where we find him building altars and calling upon the name of the LORD. Abraham was living before the LORD in obedience! Okay…maybe he ‘fell’ from grace while vacationing in Egypt, but the prodigal son came back home.  Jerry…did you ever happen to notice the emphases on the promise in Hebrews 11:8-9? It is an inheritance of land with heirs of lineage with him of the same promise; again… this is a significant observation Jerry! Now…I hate to bring this up again, but need to remind you of the things that you haven’t been able to address, or took some wild swings at thinking that you were addressing them. I gave you 39 books of the OT plus Matthew, Mark and Luke totaling 42 books of the bible to show me just one case of someone looking to the cross for salvation and the best you came up with was Gal 3:8, with a “There you go:” I showed you Luke 18 where the elements of what Paul calls his gospel (1Co 15:1-4) were hid from the twelve disciples all the while preaching ‘a gospel’ (Lk 9:1-6) and asked you to show me the components of that gospel and how the recipients were justified…you ignored me. Let me see if I can sum up your position Jerry… your claim is that there is only one gospel, there has only ever been one gospel and that gospel wasn’t only preached to Abraham, but preached and received by all OT saints saved by grace in looking to the cross. Correct Jerry? I don’t want to misrepresent your position… is that correct? Of course, you also through in that if; “Anyone believes any other gospel, and they are damned.” That was certainly intimidating! Only one gospel Jerry? Once again you have fallen prey to the doctrine of the NIV; lets compare: Galatians 2:7-9 (KJV) 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Galatians 2:7-9 (NIV) 7 On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews. 8 For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. How about that Jerry… the NIV teaches exactly the same as you; there is no gospel of the uncircumcision and no gospel of the circumcision, just a gospel! Here’s the problem Jerry… you’re making the same mistake that most other preachers & teachers make and that is confusing the foundation (Rom 15:20; 1Co 3:1-12) with God’s means, messages and messengers; 1 Cor. 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Paul, unlike the apostles who received their gospel and marching orders from the Lord with His feet firmly planted on ground both pre and post resurrection, Paul received his gospel from the heavenly Christ (2Co 5:16; Ac 9:3, 17, 26:12-19), and not from the apostles! Galatians 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. And… as recorded in Gal 2 where Paul goes up by revelation to visit Peter & company at Jerusalem, it was to reveal unto them that gospel which he preached among the Gentiles: Galatians 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.Paul refers to that gospel he preached among the Gentiles as the gospel of the uncircumcision and held it in contrast to the gospel of the circumcision committed to Peter. Tell ya what Jerry… free of charge, I’m going to give a crash course on the gospel of the circumcision and do so within the context of Abraham being the father of the circumcision pointing back to Gen 12. In other words... going to kill two birds with one stone.  Crash Course: Gospel of the Circumcision 101 – Gal 2:7 God – shall justify the circumcision ‘by faith’ Abraham – father of the circumcision ‘by faith’ I. John the Baptist John the Baptist urged Israel to repentance saying the kingdom of heaven was at hand and preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mt 3:1-11; Mk 1:1-5; Lk 3:1-16) Luke 7:29-30 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. II. Jesus & the Twelve Disciples – Pre-Cross The twelve disciples were sent to preach the kingdom of God (Lk 9:1-6) and in particular, the earthly aspect stressed throughout Matthew’s Gospel… the kingdom of heaven: Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. As both promised and prophesied (Gen 12:3; Lk 1:67-73), Israel would be redeemed from her enemies and the 12 granted to sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:29-30 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Jerry… this is exactly why they questioned the Lord regarding the time frame of the reestablishment of a kingdom… “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” Acts 1:6 “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” Mt 10:23 During this pre-cross ministry Jesus & the 12 made and baptized more disciples then John… though Jesus didn’t personally baptize a single convert! Jerry… ever ask and answer the question to why this was? Huh? John 4:1-2 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) For Jesus Christ to have personally baptized with water would be an Oxymoron! Why would He Who could personally forgive others of their sins be baptizing for remission of sins?! As an exception to the rule to demonstrate both His authority and deity, Christ did exactly that: Luke 5:20-24 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? 22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts? 23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? 24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. The foundational issue of the time was ‘who’ is Jesus Christ! Obviously the scribes and Pharisees stumbled over that! Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. The Lord Jesus got the following confessions out of Martha and Peter: John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. Matthew 16:13-16 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And… Jerry, Phillip got this confession out of the Ethiopia eunuch before he would baptize him with water: Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The means was ‘by faith’ and the message was a ‘kingdom gospel’; the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins… Jesus did not and would not baptize with water; He left that to His disciples in making disciples. Jesus personally forgiving sins is a rare recorded occasion (Lk 7:47-49) and was an exception to the rule… just as the events in the lives of Abraham and David, as referred to by Paul in Romans 4, were exceptions and not the norm for that OT time era. Jerry… you still there? Jerry…….? BAPTIST OVERBOARD… man the life raft! Don’t worry Jerry… this same study of ‘by faith’ and ‘through faith’ sinks the Church of Christ’s ship too! III. Jesus & the Twelve Apostles – Post-Cross After opening the eyes of His disciples regarding His death, burial and resurrection as recorded in the Law of Moses, Prophets and Psalms, He once again commissioned His now Apostles (Lk 24:44-49): Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Mark 16:15-16 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. The emphasis, on resurrection, that Peter made on the day of Pentecost to the nation of Israel (Ac 2:22… ye men of Israel) was that Jesus was raised to sit on the throne of David (Ac 2:30) with promise that if Israel repented, God would send Jesus which as before was preached unto them: Acts 3:19-20 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Jerry… what was Peter’s response to those of the house of Israel who asked, “what shall we do ?” after his indictment of Israel? Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Due to length... post continued on Not so fast! Part 6 - B No Jerry... this is not an endless debate; just a long one 
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#265
04-27-2008, 10:26 AM
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Not so fast! Part 6 - B
Quote:
Here's a relevant illustration to drive home my point regarding this gospel of the circumcision… When I preach a salvation message Jerry, I don’t preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins making promise to my listening recipients that if they repent God will send Jesus Christ unto them! Illustrated point made? IV. Gospel of the Circumcision and Gentiles – Acts Period The focus of the Apostles, as well as they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen, was on the Jews: Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. Contrary to the what Peter understood the order of progression to be concerning the Gentiles future relationship to Israel (Micah 4:1-3; Zech 14:1-21), Peter found himself using his keys (Mt 16:19) to unlock the kingdom gates for Cornelius and household in Acts 10. Jerry… notice very carefully why Cornelius was a candidate for the words to be shared by Peter and what deduction Peter came to: Acts 10:1-2 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. Acts 10:35-36 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)Though not of the household of Israel, Cornelius as did Abel through Zacharias and Elisabeth (Lk 5-6), was walking ‘by faith’! And…before Peter ever finished his message and ask for every head bowed and every eye closed and a show of hands for salvation…and of course ‘Just as I am’ playing in the background…the Holy Ghost was poured out upon them! Acts 10:44-46 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Still numbed by the experience and once again events being out of sequence according to Peter’s way of thinking… Peter commands them to be baptized in the name of the ‘Lord’; not in the name of ‘Jesus Christ’ (Cp. Ac 2:38 w/10:47-48). Jerry… Peter didn’t even get the privilege laying hands on them as he and John had to for the Samaritans (Ac 8:14-17). Now… before making my actual point regarding the gospel of the circumcision and Gentiles during the Acts period, there’s a HUGE contrast to be made between what happened in Ac 10 regarding Peter and Cornelius and Acts 13-14 under Paul’s 1st apostolic journey: Acts 14:26-27 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled. 27And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door ‘of faith’ unto the Gentiles. Jerry… this door ‘of faith’ will come into important play in my next post relating to Abraham as father of the Gentiles. Here’s where I’m going with this… in Acts 15, after the meeting of the minds including the apostles and elders at Jerusalem, along with Barnabas and Paul over the issue of what Gentiles ought to and ought not to observe, the following was determined and declared by James: Acts 15:18-21 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Jerry… what’s the big fuss all about?! Unless… the Jewish Christians were still observing the ‘customs’ of Moses? Notice that Paul was called into question once again over this very issue: Acts 21:17-25 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Wow! Believing Jewish Christians keeping the law… Jerry! Hey… why not?! Weren’t the apostles anticipating the return of Christ to establish the earthly kingdom with them judging the 12 tribes of Israel? And… unless you believe in Covenant or Replacement Theology, are there not 9 chapters in Ezekiel (40-48) remaining to be fulfilled? Or… maybe the NIV has once again entered the picture to pervert doctrine; let’s compare: Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV) 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17 (NIV) 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.A shadow of things that ‘were’ to come? Hmmm... who wrote this book  Now Jerry… let’s look at one passage taken from above mentioned chapters in Ezekiel and compare: Ezekiel 46:1-3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened. 2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening. 3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons. I don’t know your position on a future millennial kingdom Jerry, but I believe it’s real and these Ezekiel passages speak to it. The KJV segregates things pertaining to Israel’s past and future from Christ’s body, while the NIV teaches Covenant/Replacement or a fulfillment theology in Christ. Jerry… just as James was proving that Paul was walking orderly and keeping law amidst the circumcision, so Paul warned those of the circumcision not to meddle with the uncircumcision in trying to bring them under law… Paul was obedient to the demands of the apostles and elders at Jerusalem in delivering letters (Ac 15:30-31) declaring the Gentiles weren’t obligated to Moses, but did not convey same to those Jews among the Gentiles (Ac 21:21)! Have to pity Paul… he had to walk a fine line when among believing Jews and had to rebuke false brethren trying to impose Moses back on to the believing Gentile. Then… there appears to have been those Gentiles who loved religion more than liberty! Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 4:8-11 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 5:1-7 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage….4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace…7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? Galatians 5:11-12 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you. Jerry…there was but one foundation and that foundation was and is the Lord Jesus Christ, but the means, messages and messengers were different thus constituting, as Paul puts it… Galatians 2:7-9 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Crash Course Summary Deduction Romans 3:30 (KJV) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith… Hebrews 11:8 (KJV) By faith Abraham…obeyed Romans 4:12 (KJV) And the father of circumcision…our father Abraham Galatians 2:7 (KJV) …the gospel of the circumcision Next post Jerry… I’ll tie the uncircumcision origin to Abraham, in the context of Romans, and show exact distinction to how righteousness was to be imputed to these Gentiles as to how righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Gen 12) and the circumcision. Romans 4:12 (KJV) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. Stvvv1611 2 Timothy 2:15 |
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#266
04-27-2008, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
I lost my NET connection yesterday and have no time to reply right now - I will reply later.
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#267
04-27-2008, 01:53 PM
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Re: Biblestudeent Post #263
Quote:
Aloha brother Sammy, I want to be careful here - but I never said: "the "grammatical" method should be done away with". I was giving a warning about the use of grammatical "terms" (I wasn't clear when I used the term: "Grammatical method".) Here is my quote: Quote:
My point is that Paul never used "grammatical terms" (verb, noun, synonyms, etc.) in order "convince" someone of a Scriptural truth. And since most ordinary people do not understand "grammar" (who does?) , the use of the grammatical "terms" only introduces a "foreign element" into a scriptural point.Your previous quote: Quote:
I try to "rightly divide" the word of truth comparing Scripture with Scripture and leave out all other extemporaneous distractions. |
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#268
04-28-2008, 12:53 PM
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Re:Dr Ruckman
Whoaaaaa... nearly burnt my retinas out reading the replys to this question, well I will try to keep 'on topic'
I first came across Doc. Ruckman 15 years ago, I read an article well two actually about him in the 'Sword Of the Lord'. His name had come up a few times, I am a 101% KJV Only-er and I wrote him asking for his side of the criticism made against him. Well his reply sent me on a quest to either prove or disprove his arguments. That is my point, he is not the fourth member of the Godhead, but he sure makes you work! Even in the controversial areas and we all know what they are, he at least gives Chapter and Verse for his beliefs therefore we can either take them or seek to answer them ourselves by going to the Scriptures. Thats the rub... he is getting your nose into the Book and not relying on another's interpretation but dig out your own answers....  I hold unashamedly Dr.Ruckman in high regard, he has personally blessed me in many ways, in fact he saved my sanity (but thats a different story )Do I think he is infallible?? Nooooooo! he is a man as we are and subject to the same pitfalls as we. I find it interesting that his detractors attack his personal life rather than the issues at hand, perhaps we should poke around in their lives and see what's lurking??? As many have said here 'spit the bones and eat the meat' is sound advice if you cannot agree with him. 
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#269
04-28-2008, 12:59 PM
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If the walk doesn't line up with the talk, what is being said is discredited (regardless of who is being critiqued). Our testimony and doctrine certainly has a direct bearing on whatever we have to say.
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#270
04-29-2008, 02:23 AM
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Re: Faith Post #262
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Jerry's Quote:
Quote:
Proverbs 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. I have been busy - but I promise I shall have more to say on this subject.
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