I guess I did leave the word "other" out. If I left it out of the Scripture Quotation, then that would be wrong of me to do. If I leave it out of my explanation, I guess I assume the word "other" was implied. Sorry I wasn't clear.

I know pastor Mikie is Pentecostal, but are there any others on this forum/thread?

I get the distinct feeling that because most of you here on this thread are not Pentecostals, you WILL NOT accept any explanation I give. Am I correct? I have really tried my best to be precise. Am I also correct that you non-Pentecostals are very much bothered by my beliefs? You are insisting we Pentecostals are unscriptural in our beliefs, and feel this great need to "correct" our error.

There a great many Scripturally "savvy" Pentecostals around, and many who are not (that's true with Baptists and other denominations). There are many who love the Word of God as much as any of you do (I'm one of them). There are also many Pentecostals who very much love their Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ (and I'm one of them, also). I say you non-Pentecostals are in error. You say we Pentecostals are in error. For the record, when someone disagrees with me on my interpretations, even though I believe I'm right, I would never accuse you of "not knowing the Bible" with the exception of outright opinion and no Scriptural proof. Please afford me the same courtesy. That makes for better discussion.

Originally Posted by Revangelist

I guess I did leave the word "other" out. If I left it out of the Scripture Quotation, then that would be wrong of me to do. If I leave it out of my explanation, I guess I assume the word "other" was implied. Sorry I wasn't clear.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you implied other.

I'm sure you can see how saying "spoke in tongues" is more in line with the modern tongues movement, but to say as scripture does, "began to speak with other tongues," is clearly talking about other languages, especially as it is explained as such further along in the chapter.

We need to be careful to not change scripture to make it line up better with our own presuppositions.

Originally Posted by Revangelist

I know pastor Mikie is Pentecostal, but are there any others on this forum/thread?

I get the distinct feeling that because most of you here on this thread are not Pentecostals, you WILL NOT accept any explanation I give. Am I correct? I have really tried my best to be precise. Am I also correct that you non-Pentecostals are very much bothered by my beliefs? You are insisting we Pentecostals are unscriptural in our beliefs, and feel this great need to "correct" our error.

There a great many Scripturally "savvy" Pentecostals around, and many who are not (that's true with Baptists and other denominations). There are many who love the Word of God as much as any of you do (I'm one of them). There are also many Pentecostals who very much love their Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ (and I'm one of them, also). I say you non-Pentecostals are in error. You say we Pentecostals are in error. For the record, when someone disagrees with me on my interpretations, even though I believe I'm right, I would never accuse you of "not knowing the Bible" with the exception of outright opinion and no Scriptural proof. Please afford me the same courtesy. That makes for better discussion.

I will only except a Biblical answer. No one has been able to give me a Biblical example of what is going on in the modern tongues/Pentecostal movement. You will never be able to convince me by your own personal experience.

I'm not bothered by you personally. Although, you are right, I am bothered by the error that is spread, for more to be deceived.

I do pray that you will take heed to the clear and plain scripture given to you. This is dishonoring to God to ignore His Word when it doesn't line up to your own personal view. To ignore plain scripture is not an interpretation problem, it's a disobedience problem.

I also don't doubt your salvation or your love of Jesus. Although, I can't know for sure either way. If you are saved, you must have been misled by a false teacher, maybe a few false teachers. We are warned, there are many among us.

I have also held to false teachings before and have been corrected by dear brothers and sisters in Christ. I am forever grateful for this Biblical correction. I have learned much from sound Biblical correction. I'm sure I will continue to have those around me correct me. I welcome it, as long as the case is made scripturally.

Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Psalms 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

This is my objection. Quote: I do pray that you will take heed to the clear and plain scripture given to you. This is dishonoring to God to ignore His Word when it doesn't line up to your own personal view. To ignore plain scripture is not an interpretation problem, it's a disobedience problem.

You haven't proven to me it is an error other than your say-so. I believe the Scriptures you present are misapplied. That, in my opinion, could be dishonoring to God. However, there is grace for errors from a sincere God-seeker.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

I don't know what else to say to you. Your mind is made up and you want to believe as you do and believe you have Scriptural evidence. All I can say is:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Ignorance isn't a sin because:

Romans 14:5...Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.


I understand this verse talks about one day above another, but it is also generally speaking about any time there is a dispute about meaning.

Grace and peace to you, sister.

[Renee]

Yes Revangelist,

There are those that perish, because they have not accepted the Gift of eternal life that Christ paid for with His death, burial and ressurection.

Just for the record, I think that this question can't be resolved Biblically, I think it can only be resolved by a true testing of the spirits of the operations of the gifts today, and I don't see that happening. Specific instances of tongues should be presented and considered, as many as possible, such as by recording every instance in a church, recording the interpretations if there are any, also investigating specific prophecies, in other words expose the whole range of the phenomena that are today called the gifts of the Spirit.

We know the gifts were in operation in the apostolic church, and it's possible there was a kind of language that was not a human language that was a speaking to God in private. I don't think the Bible is clear on this point one way or the other. If it is "unknown" and yet it "edifies" oneself that seems to be a possible interpretation.

The real question that concerns us today isn't so much what powers they had in that generation, but whether or not the sign gifts were only meant for them, and possibly also for the generation of the last days as well, but not for the church in the intervening centuries. There is good reason to think this is the case from the historical fact that the gifts did in fact stop, and did not reoccur except in isolated instances until the 20th century. There is also reason to think that most, possibly all, of the examples in this last century were demonically inspired. There's been plenty of evidence of that, from the unholy environments often created where the sign gifts are in operation to the testimony of people involved in the movement that a great proportion of the phenomena are demonic.

When I began to be uneasy about my own experiences in the charismatic movement and prayed for light, God brought all kinds of things to my attention and my remembrance that helped me to begin to recognize just how much of it was not of Him, violations of scripture in supposed prophetic messages for instance. Even after that I didn't have a solid conviction that all the gifts were not of Him -- that all tongues-speakers, all prophets, all healers for instance are deceived -- until recently, and now I'm just about totally convinced, and in any case very clear that my own supposed gift of tongues is not of Him and I want to be rid of it. The way I finally arrived at this conclusion was by learning more about the history of the movement and reading particular studies of it, such as David Cloud's. To my mind the burden of proof is now on the believers to show that their tongues, their prophecies by "prophets", their healings by supposed "healers," are authentic.

I don't doubt that there are many fine godly charismatics and pentecostals who sincerely believe in the gifts for today based on their understanding of the Bible. But simply quoting the Bible doesn't resolve this question, as is shown on this thread. Until the practitioners are willing to expose all the supposed gifts to careful scrutiny and able to show that the gifts are genuine, my own conclusion is that they are deceived -- the way Catholics are sincere but deceived, and so on.

I'm willing to be scrutinized, and so is my wife. I still remember the first time she openly moved in the Gifts. We were doing a concert in a medium-sized church. Towards the end, my wife asked me if she could say something. I obliged. She looked towards the back of the sanctuary and said that someone needed healing from heart problems. A woman responded and affirmed she had a heart condition, but her symptoms had just gone away. Of course I was nervous, because the Bible makes it clear about 100% accuracy. The pastor, after the service, confirmed what had taken place.

I told my wife that the Holy Ghost is the one who is in charge of the gifts. Also, don't use this manifestation as a "calling card". Whenever my wife has operated in this fashion, she has never been wrong. She also doesn't "conjure-up" a manifestation either. This manifestation hasn't happened very often with her.

The dangers facing the church are ownership of the 1st Corinthians 12 gifts of the Holy Ghost. They aren't ours to keep. They are to profit withal, not someone to get puffed-up over.

Originally Posted by Connie

Just for the record, I think that this question can't be resolved Biblically, I think it can only be resolved by a true testing of the spirits of the operations of the gifts today, and I don't see that happening.

The only way for a true testing of the spirits is to compare to scripture.

2 Timothy 3:13-17 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie

I'm willing to be scrutinized, and so is my wife. I still remember the first time she openly moved in the Gifts. We were doing a concert in a medium-sized church. Towards the end, my wife asked me if she could say something. I obliged. She looked towards the back of the sanctuary and said that someone needed healing from heart problems. A woman responded and affirmed she had a heart condition, but her symptoms had just gone away. Of course I was nervous, because the Bible makes it clear about 100% accuracy. The pastor, after the service, confirmed what had taken place.

I told my wife that the Holy Ghost is the one who is in charge of the gifts. Also, don't use this manifestation as a "calling card". Whenever my wife has operated in this fashion, she has never been wrong. She also doesn't "conjure-up" a manifestation either. This manifestation hasn't happened very often with her.

The dangers facing the church are ownership of the 1st Corinthians 12 gifts of the Holy Ghost. They aren't ours to keep. They are to profit withal, not someone to get puffed-up over.

In testing that spirit, I would wonder... since women are to be silent in Church.