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Old 07-31-2009, 05:09 PM
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Default Soul sleep or heaven?

The other day I was talking to a friend who sees good reasons to believe what the Seventh Day Adventist & the Jehovah’s Witnesses both teach concerning soul sleep. I personally don’t buy this teaching as I believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

When the Jw’s once called round at our home they challenged me with this claim saying that God will re-construct the body of the dead from the graves and that Ezekiel teaches that the soul that sinneth it shall die as their proof text.

I asked them …who were the two men that appeared on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus…were they holograms? They replied no….then I said…..then who were they? They couldn’t answer me!
After this I tried to keep the focus on Christ and their relationship with His gospel but they decided to leave.

But my question is……….what do you see in the Scriptures concerning soul sleep, believers going to heaven when they die or remaining in the grave as these people teach?

God bless

PaulB
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  #2  
Old 07-31-2009, 07:07 PM
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2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Philippians 1:21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 *But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 *For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"


Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 *And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 *And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."


There are many other scriptures that prove that Soul Sleep is false.
  #3  
Old 07-31-2009, 08:18 PM
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Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

Where does the spirit of man go when it goes upward?

Is the spirit sleeping?

of course the JW's and SDA make the spirit just to be a force not the person and in that sense it is but the soul is connected with the spirit.

Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

How can a spirit be just life force, energy or power if it can be circumcised? Man is called a soul and a spirit in this case spirit is not speaking of life force but the man himself

The body may lay in a grave but the spirit/soul is not there in the body. Life is more than the body. a soul dies only when it is cast with it's body and spirit into the lake of fire.

Last edited by chette777; 07-31-2009 at 08:28 PM.
  #4  
Old 08-01-2009, 06:12 AM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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The Wonderful thing about the word of God is when some heretic like a JW or a SDA claims a verse or two here and there to defend the heresy of "soul sleep" there are countless verses of Gods Holy scriptures to refute their Heresy.

Quote:
Acts 7:54-60 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this,he fell asleep.
When we read that passage in the correct context do we believe that Stephen just simply fell asleep and went to the grave? NO of course we don't, we believe what the scripture tells us, that Stephen looked up and saw the heavens opened, he witnessed the Glory of God, he saw the Lord Jesus standing at the right hand of God and cried out "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" so he witnessed Christ's location (Heaven, at the right hand of the Father) and asked him to receive his spirit (to heaven) could it be any clearer Mr JW Heretic ?


In Luke we read about the beggar Lazarus, who when he died didn't fall into soul sleep, he was carried into Abraham's bosom

Quote:
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
The Rich man could recognise Lazarus, he could see, he could feel and he could touch, it is quite apparent from scripture that he was NOT asleep

The penitent thief on the cross was promised that he would be with Christ in Paradise, NOT that he would fall asleep.

Quote:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Other Brothers have cited ..

Quote:
2nd Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Again can scripture be any clearer as to what happens when we die (IN CHRIST!) we are absent from the Body (Amen) and present with the Lord (Amen and Amen and Amen!) Glorified and present with the Saviour!

Elijah clearly went to Heaven "consious", he didn't fall asleep in the Chariot and go into the ground to "soul sleep", he went DIRECTLY to Heaven .

2nd Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

He then appears at the Transfiguration along with Moses who was also DEAD and clearly when they were talking with Christ they were awake

There are many other places in Gods Holy scripture where this HERESY of soul sleep is clearly refuted, when you have a JW call at your door, it is fruitless to get into a conversation with them over scripture, because they are trained in the verses they cite , trained to twist and wrest them completely out of context, you are better telling them that the watchtower society hasn't had one prophecy come to pass yet and the Bible clearly states that when a man who prophecies and that prophecy dosent come to pass, then he is deemed a FALSE PROPHET, just as Charles Taze Russel was!

Deuteronomy 18:18-22 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.


The watchtower Society simply "presumes", their Cult leader Charles Taze Russel is buried under an illuminate pyramid, they claim to oppose Roman Catholicism, yet their NEW WORLD TRANSLATION in translated by Jesuits!

In Isaiah 40:3 the nwt reads

3 Listen! It’s the voice of someone shouting,
“Clear the way through the wilderness
for the Lord!
Make a straight highway through the wasteland
for our God!

Point them to that fact that their own translation states that Jesus Christ IS GOD ALMIGHTY, that verse cites that the way is to be cleared for God, and the fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy in Matthew 3:3 clearly shows us that John the baptist prepared the way for Jesus Christ!

Quote:
Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Finally when dealing with a JW leave them with scripture that will NOT return onto the Lord void


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



Amen, they need to ditch the Cult and get themselves right with GOD ALMIGHTY, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!
  #5  
Old 08-01-2009, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
But my question is……….what do you see in the Scriptures concerning soul sleep, believers going to heaven when they die or remaining in the grave as these people teach?
There are two passages in the Holy Bible that answer this question, please refer to the following, the first from OT Ecclesiastes and the second in NT Hebrews. Souls do not sleep once deceased, the death of one's life is perished unless one is brought back to life by the grace of God in heaven, His grace and not the grace of men who know not the LORD.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
  #6  
Old 08-01-2009, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
But my question is……….what do you see in the Scriptures concerning soul sleep, believers going to heaven when they die or remaining in the grave as these people teach?
First, a big problem that I've seen with defending the truth about this issue is that so many (of us) misquote (continuously) their "pet verse" for their defense. Then they (rightly) accuse the cult of the same practice, but they themselves (many on this forum) have been guilty.

Watch closely. Here's everyone's "pull out the sword and slay'em" verses.

II Cor. 5:6-8

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

But...maybe you didn't notice that these verses DO NOT SAY what so many quote them as saying. Read again carefully. Does the Bible say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?" Does it????

The cult member that is throughly trained will be quick to point this one out while you're the one "bleeding" on your porch.

The verses say that we are "willing rather...to be present with the Lord" as in it is our desire to be with the Lord and not in these bodies. It's true. These are not the "proof text" verses that so many use and misquote to each other. Be careful.

Now, the cults are famous for misapplying certain verses to one's eternal soul by divorcing the said verse from it's full context. For instance,

Ecc. 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,...

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

They've also stated that to be "unclothed" (II Cor. 5:4) is to be in a unconscious state awaiting a new body (house).

These go along with the numerous references to death being termed "sleep."

John 11:11-14
11. These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

I Cor. 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

What they fail to see is the difference in the body, soul, and spirit - a difference which shows a complete separation at death.

The last verse in Gen 49 and the first of the next chapter read...
And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost (SPIRIT), and was gathered unto his people (SOUL, NOT BODY). And Joseph fell upon his father's face (BODY), and wept upon him, and kissed him.

Jacob's soul departed his body at death just like his wife Rachel.

Gen 35:18
And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.


Paul said "the time of my departure is at hand" and "...having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better..." To depart is to leave the body at death. Here's Simeon in Luke 2:26-29:

And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:


How about what happened at the death of our Lord Jesus Christ?

BODY - Luke 23:52-53 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

SOUL - Acts 2:25-27 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (see Eph. 4 - Christ descended)

SPIRIT - Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Did you notice what David said about the body of Jesus as quoted by Peter in Acts 2? "Moreover my flesh shall rest in hope"!!! The body was resting...asleep! The Bible refers to the body (not soul) as being asleep and waiting for its redemption.

Matt. 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
  #7  
Old 08-01-2009, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiwolski View Post
Did you notice what David said about the body of Jesus as quoted by Peter in Acts 2? "Moreover my flesh shall rest in hope"!!! The body was resting...asleep! The Bible refers to the body (not soul) as being asleep and waiting for its redemption.
Excellent summary. Thanks for taking the time to post this.
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Old 08-01-2009, 11:52 AM
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Default Re: "Soul sleep or heaven?"

Aloha brother pbiwolski,

I totally agree with brother Brandon. A most excellent Scriptural summary!
  #9  
Old 08-01-2009, 12:05 PM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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Quote:
First, a big problem that I've seen with defending the truth about this issue is that so many (of us) misquote (continuously) their "pet verse" for their defense. Then they (rightly) accuse the cult of the same practice, but they themselves (many on this forum) have been guilty.

Watch closely. Here's everyone's "pull out the sword and slay'em" verses.
Thanks for pointing this out, I shall try not to misquote (continuously) the verse in question.
  #10  
Old 08-01-2009, 01:30 PM
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Thanks everyone for some very edifying replies as it is so good of you to share your thoughts as well as take the time to present a lot of hard honest hard study!


God bless

PaulB
 

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