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  #21  
Old 07-26-2009, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
Sister Jassy,



Are there churches that actually read this Scripture before the offering?! Just curious...what types of churches are these?

Sis Amanda,

Yes! There are, indeed. As I've related in previous posts, and in my testimony as well, I came out of the Worldwide Church of God - there were THOUSANDS of them all over the world. And yes, they commonly used those scriptures before the offering!

These are primarily FALSE churches who do such. I wasn't intimating that the true Body of Christ would do that.

Jassy
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  #22  
Old 07-26-2009, 08:53 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Since churches generally use the Old Testament scriptures quoted above to more or less "guilt" people into giving, guess who the banks' BIGGEST customers must be on Monday morning? Well, following Sunday church services, church secretaries, of course! They're eager to deposit the "tithes" into the church banking account.
Oh Jassy, this is so sad.....? As I've said before I am the daughter-in-law of a pastor, the wife of a pastor and assistant pastor...very close to pastor's families and leadership in many churches and while I've heard of this type of behaviour I've never seen anyone exibit the behaviour you are describing? Most of the pastors I know are bi-vocational and are certainly not in it for the money...
I would like to defend the churches I am associated with possibly inserted in this broad generalization...While it's despicable that there are churches out there like that, I'd would dare say that in a true Bible Believing Baptist church this is hardly the norm. But I can undestand that if you've come from a bad situation one can be touchy on many areas and I am sorry for that...

Quote:
Nevermind if it's going into the church building fund, the missionary fund, the minister's salary, or any other part of the church "budget." How can we be so sure that our money is properly given and properly being used?
I would say that if you honestly cannot in good conscience trust your tithe to a church
then you need to find a church you can trust.

Quote:
I've known far too many Christians who, having been blessed with a fancy house, expensive cars, and new, modern furniture, fully believe that it is the end result of their faith and God's blessings upon them. They fully believe that, if you are rich, then you're reaping the blessings of your faith. If you're poor, then there's obviously something lacking in your faith.
I do not know any true Christians like this personally, but I do know that my aunt who was in a Mennonite cult had her faith destroyed by this very teaching. They were churched for basically always being poor as they taught it was an outward sign of an inward sin. They got out of church and now she is a self professed Athiest with 8 children. Very sad situation.

We need to be careful to consider what the Bible has to say on these matters and do the best we know. The Lord will not hold us accountable for another's transgressions. If you were to give your tithes to a church and they were not good stewards of that money, if you gave as unto the Lord that is all that matters.
  #23  
Old 07-26-2009, 09:17 PM
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No, Christians are not "commanded" to tithe.

Abraham was not commanded.
The Gentiles were not commanded.
Christians today are not commanded.

The only people "commanded" to tithe are the Hebrews, the Twelve Tribes of Israel. One tribe had no land inheritance; the tithe was given to them as the Lord commanded them.

Should Christians today tithe?

That's a different question altogether!

Answer:
1. Was Abraham commanded to tithe? No.
2. Did Abraham tithe? Yes.
3. Are Christians commanded to tithe? No.
4. Should Christians tithe? "According as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give."
5. May Christians give less than tithe? "He that soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly."
6. May Christians give more than tithe? "My God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."
7. Are you giving your tithe? _________
8. Are you giving more than tithe? ______________
9. Am I giving?__________________
  #24  
Old 07-26-2009, 09:34 PM
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I believe the practice of tithing to a church organization is unscriptural. Tithing was a Jewish law for the Jewish temple. Christianity has no temples. I understand that groups of christians need to pool some resources together to have some place to meet and to take care of expenses. Since it is also unscriptural for a local body of believers to have one main pastor over them my belief is that the ideal is that pastors, elders, deacons, should work to support their families and share the work of the ministry. I don't believe there should be a "professional" class of ministers, pastors, etc. I do believe that there are talented and faithful men that should be supported in specialized ministries, like bible translation, evangelism, missionary work, many different things. Christians should definitely give to these specialized ministries if they feel lead. I believe we should also be good stewards of our resources so we have something left to help those we come across in our daily lives who need help.

I also believe that the Lord does hold us accountable for who and what we give to.

My belief is that these denominational monoliths that are built up by the tithes of church members will continue to be operational after christians have been caught up into the air with Christ.

Last edited by greenbear; 07-26-2009 at 09:40 PM.
  #25  
Old 07-26-2009, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
Oh Jassy, this is so sad.....? As I've said before I am the daughter-in-law of a pastor, the wife of a pastor and assistant pastor...very close to pastor's families and leadership in many churches and while I've heard of this type of behaviour I've never seen anyone exibit the behaviour you are describing? Most of the pastors I know are bi-vocational and are certainly not in it for the money...
I would like to defend the churches I am associated with possibly inserted in this broad generalization...While it's despicable that there are churches out there like that, I'd would dare say that in a true Bible Believing Baptist church this is hardly the norm. But I can undestand that if you've come from a bad situation one can be touchy on many areas and I am sorry for that...



I would say that if you honestly cannot in good conscience trust your tithe to a church
then you need to find a church you can trust.



I do not know any true Christians like this personally, but I do know that my aunt who was in a Mennonite cult had her faith destroyed by this very teaching. They were churched for basically always being poor as they taught it was an outward sign of an inward sin. They got out of church and now she is a self professed Athiest with 8 children. Very sad situation.

We need to be careful to consider what the Bible has to say on these matters and do the best we know. The Lord will not hold us accountable for another's transgressions. If you were to give your tithes to a church and they were not good stewards of that money, if you gave as unto the Lord that is all that matters.
Sis Amanda,

Thank you for graciously pointing out some errors in my previous post. I should have started with "Some of the most common Scriptures used in the FALSE churches today..." because the true Body of Christ of a surety would not.

Yes, since I was involved in that false church for so long, as a new Christian, I developed many false understandings about the Bible. Add to that the fact that I am Deaf and the church provided a "notetaker" for me - who was putting her own added SPIN on things - and you begin to see that I had to go through some serious de-programming to get where I am today. That came out later, about the notetaking, when the minister saw her notes!

I still make mistakes that I don't intend to make. I do believe that the Lord has given us the Holy Spirit - and we are to listen to that Holy Spirit. I was a new "babe in Christ" and I did have many uncomfortable feelings being in that church but I had put it down to my own shortcomings and imperfections. I thought I was not WORTHY of these seemingly PERFECT Christians!! It was more like an ACT for them, and I began to see it. I finally left the church and was more confused than ever.

I am so thankful that the Holy Spirit led me to the TRUTH and that I am so much more well-grounded in truth than I ever was in the past.

I apologize if I made any insinuation that your church or any churches that you know of personally have this type of gross error. I'm sure they don't.

Again, I was referring to FALSE churches, regarding the money and the trust. I see programs on TV where the ministers BEG for money and it just is NOT becoming of the Church. It gives a false impression that THIS is the way that believers fund their ministries.

Currently, I attend no church. There are no KJV-only churches where I live. I've tried attending many churches and most are very strongly CALVINISTIC (which I disagree with) or they are very worldly churches.

I would greatly love to find a church!! Being, deaf, I would need a sign language interpreter - and that adds an additional aspect, which is not commonly available.

I don't see that we need to put our money into a church. I put some of my money into Bible tracts and I put some of my money into native missionaries. I also "donate" services that I do - such as editing English for foreign Christians' church webpages, enhancing photographs (adding light to dark photos) of church activities, etc. (I am fairly skilled in Photoshop.)

Yes, I agree that we need to be careful to consider what the Bible has to say on these matters. Absolutely.

I apologize if you feel that I was being disrespectful or critical of your church or any TRUE churches. I was speaking of the FALSE churches - which are proliferic in the world.

Thank you again for your corrections, sis.

Jassy
  #26  
Old 07-26-2009, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
I believe the practice of tithing to a church organization is unscriptural. Tithing was a Jewish law for the Jewish temple. Christianity has no temples. I understand that groups of christians need to pool some resources together to have some place to meet and to take care of expenses. Since it is also unscriptural for a local body of believers to have one main pastor over them my belief is that the ideal is that pastors, elders, deacons, should work to support their families and share the work of the ministry. I don't believe there should be a "professional" class of ministers, pastors, etc. I do believe that there are talented and faithful men that should be supported in specialized ministries, like bible translation, evangelism, missionary work, many different things. Christians should definitely give to these specialized ministries if they feel lead. I believe we should also be good stewards of our resources so we have something left to help those we come across in our daily lives who need help. I also believe that the Lord does hold us accountable for who and what we give to.

My belief is that these denominational monoliths that are built up by the tithes of church members will continue to be operational after christians have been caught up into the air with Christ.
sis Jen!! Especially on that last sentence! I agree with that - the Body of Christ will be caught up in the air - and these false churches will still be having their Sunday go-to-church meetings... completely oblivious!

Jassy
  #27  
Old 07-26-2009, 10:32 PM
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Biblestudent Biblestudent is offline
 
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Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
Since it is also unscriptural for a local body of believers to have one main pastor over them my belief is that the ideal is that pastors, elders, deacons, should work to support their families and share the work of the ministry.
Hi, greenbear! I would disagree with the idea that for a pastor to work a secular job (if that's what you meant) rather than be fully supported by the church is the ideal situation.

The "ideal" is for preachers to be supported by the church where they labor. The Lord ordained it to be so (1 Cor. 9:14). God's servants have power to forbear working (1 Cor. 9:2ff), but they have the option not to use that power.

"Tentmaking" is necessary in special occasions.

Now, if the "ideal" would be a stumblingblock to carnal Christians, I'd rather "make tents" than make my glorying void.
  #28  
Old 07-26-2009, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Since it is also unscriptural for a local body of believers to have one main pastor over them my belief is that the ideal is that pastors, elders, deacons, should work to support their families and share the work of the ministry. I don't believe there should be a "professional" class of ministers, pastors, etc.
Sounds like a Primitive Baptist to me. There are some Professional P. B. Ministers, but they take their support as donations, not salaries. And they usually minister at more than one Church.

In general though, it is handled just as you have stated above. As far as supporting Missions and such, most do not, based on no mention of mission organizations in scripture. But personal Evangelism is encouraged, if you want to foot the bill. Some more liberal/moderate P.B. Churches might even do that. But no mission organizations.
  #29  
Old 07-26-2009, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biblestudent View Post
Hi, greenbear! I would disagree with the idea that for a pastor to work a secular job (if that's what you meant) rather than be fully supported by the church is the ideal situation.

The "ideal" is for preachers to be supported by the church where they labor. The Lord ordained it to be so (1 Cor. 9:14). God's servants have power to forbear working (1 Cor. 9:2ff), but they have the option not to use that power.

"Tentmaking" is necessary in special occasions.

Now, if the "ideal" would be a stumblingblock to carnal Christians, I'd rather "make tents" than make my glorying void.
Hi, Biblestudent.

Of course you are absolutely correct. I'll add:

1 Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

As you may have gathered, I am of the belief that the "Christian" churches are apostatized to a great degree. I believe that when a church gets to be a certain size, they have a large property with the incumbent expenses, they are beholden to a church board for their salary, etc. so "pastor(s)" can be swayed by interests within the church who want to control what is preached and taught. On a large denominational basis this problem is amplified. We are not in the same circumstance as was the early church in Paul's time. Denomination after denomination has fallen into apostasy. This is a personal conviction and I understand not everyone would hold this view. It is by no means wrong for a church body to pay the salaries of the elders. I just think there are certain benefits to having lay elders. If that makes me a carnal christian, so be it! Of course, christians aren't going to reorganize their church structures to suit me. Your english is so perfect I have assumed you must be an American missionary pastoring a church in the Philippines. I pray that God blesses your ministry.

Last edited by greenbear; 07-26-2009 at 11:54 PM.
  #30  
Old 07-26-2009, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Samuel View Post
Sounds like a Primitive Baptist to me. There are some Professional P. B. Ministers, but they take their support as donations, not salaries. And they usually minister at more than one Church.

In general though, it is handled just as you have stated above. As far as supporting Missions and such, most do not, based on no mention of mission organizations in scripture. But personal Evangelism is encouraged, if you want to foot the bill. Some more liberal/moderate P.B. Churches might even do that. But no mission organizations.
Samuel, I hope you don't mind me borrowing your term "denominational monoliths" but it was really too good to pass up. I've never heard of Primitive Baptist churches. The Primitive part sounds very good but I don't believe baptism is for the dispensation of Grace so I'm only half way there. My husband and I plan on attending a Grace church, as in grace believers, the same kind of church as Tonybones.

I know there is no "Great Commission" for the church age but I do believe that God has used the English speaking nations to spread the gospel throughout the world. I see every reason to spread the gospel to other nations during the church age.

May God bless you,

Jennifer

Last edited by greenbear; 07-26-2009 at 11:52 PM.
 

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