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Old 07-16-2009, 12:30 PM
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Default Hate the sin, love the sinner

I recently posted a status on my FaceBook that Mahatma Ghandi is actually the one that is quoted as saying "Hate the sin, love the sinner" to which several responded that it was a godly attitude to have...

Is there Scripture that supports this specifically? If so, how does one reconcile this "godly attitude" with Psalm 5:5?
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
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Old 07-16-2009, 02:36 PM
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It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.

It's about the Pauline Epistles and the rest of the word.

Psalm 5:5 is true. But in the OT, the words "sinners" is used mainly of the gentiles and those israelites that chose to worship idols. In the NT, it becomes a common term for all men. Psalm 5:5 is also written BEFORE the crucifixion

The Pauline Epistles and the gospel and epistles of John speak of Jesus being propitious to the point of infinite. Therefore, if Jesus is the propitiation, and God is satisfied with the blood sacrifice, there is no need for God to be angry NOW, as all man can freely come to Him, because Christ has removed the barrier between God and man. Throughout the Johannine & Pauline Epistles, we find many verses on love. John 3:16, Romans 5:8, Galatians 2:20 to name a few. God's love to all sinners was demonstrated on the cross, and God's eyes are fixed upon the blood and upon His Son, which appeases his wrath. However, when a man stands before the Throne of God without the blood, that's a whole other story, and I wouldn't want to be that man in that day.

There is nothing stopping a sinner coming to God today, because God is satisfied with Jesus Christ. God is not mad.

This teaching that God is continually mad is Roman Catholic. I find little scripture except for two Psalms. It seems whenever this topic comes up, rightly dividing gets thrown out the window and God becomes a God of hate, because of two verses written in and for another dispensation.

HOWEVER, having said that, I do not think it is acceptable to tell people that they are OKAY IN their sin. But rather than tell them "God hates you" as some streetpreachers do, a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.

God bless
Luke

EDIT: An additional note - as I spoke before about rightly dividing, the context of the Psalm is "STAND IN GOD'S SIGHT". One could take this to mean - before the Great White Throne. There are many fools who unrighteously stand before God and blaspheme his name today, but nothing happens to them... but something will, when they are in God's sight.
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Old 07-16-2009, 03:14 PM
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I think you're right about this verse referring to the GWT Judgement, Luke. The entire Psalm seems to support that David is looking to Christ ruling as a King on earth. Especially verse 4 :

Psalms 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Thanks for pointing that out.
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Old 07-16-2009, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
I think you're right about this verse referring to the GWT Judgement, Luke. The entire Psalm seems to support that David is looking to Christ ruling as a King on earth. Especially verse 4 :

Psalms 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Oops. The GWT judgement is after the Millennial Kingdom.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.
True, I was just giving a bit of history...

Are you saying that God only hated before the cruxifiction? And that Christ's death on the cross erased His hate? Obviously it erased the hate for those who accepted the gift of salvation as His blood covers all sin. But I am not convinced that Christ doesn't hate those who reject the sacrifice of His only Son.

I do agree that the context of the GWT Judgement seems to put this verse into perspective. Thanks for pointing that out...I'll study on that a bit more.

So often though people lightly throw around "Hate the sin, not the sinner" and really they are accusing you of hate because you are "condeming" a lifestyle or sin. Love to them is to ignore their sin and accept the person.

But to point out more Scripture David also says:

Quote:
Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
I am not suggesting hollering at passersby on the street that God hates them or that they are hated. That certainly would not win them over. You stated that very well when you said:

Quote:
...a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.
It is hard to really explain what I am getting at...I am not suggesting we as Christians go around with hatred in our hearts toward anyone. But rather dispel this idea that God is smiling down with pleasure at His creation and is not one we should fear.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:19 PM
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Yeah, the saying is stupid. It is usually used by Christians to justify some pet sin they have - "Oh, it is okay that I do this, God loves me, he hates my sin, but he loves me". Or it is used by the world, but never in regards to any actual kind of sin, but always as a rebuke to Christians who are preaching against sin.

God is definitely not happy with sinners, but His anger has been appeased. He is not fuming mad because the blood is on the mercy seat, for ALL men (1 John 2:1-2).
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:10 PM
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David must be looking towards the New Earth in that passage.
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
I recently posted a status on my FaceBook that Mahatma Ghandi is actually the one that is quoted as saying "Hate the sin, love the sinner" to which several responded that it was a godly attitude to have...

Is there Scripture that supports this specifically? If so, how does one reconcile this "godly attitude" with Psalm 5:5?
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
Here's my take on it. Yes, I should hate sin but love the sinner. Paul certainly had a “hate” for sin. In context, he is clearly referencing sin here:

Romans 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

And the Bible is very clear concerning loving the saved sinner as well as the lost sinner.

Love the saved sinner

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

He is speaking to the eleven remaining disciples of course, but this certainly applies to all who are in Christ Jesus. Christ loved (loves) us even though we are still sinners (meaning that we still commit sins) and now we should love one another as He loved us.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Romans 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Love the lost sinner

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

It seems clear to me that since God loved me as a lost sinner, I should also love the lost sinner and proclaim the glorious gospel of truth, “…how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). I am changed in that God, the very essence of love, dwells in me through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The fruit of the Spirit is love.

Certainly there is scripture that supports the idea we should hate sin but love the sinner.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:16 PM
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Yes, I agree that we should certainly love the brethren. The Bible is very clear on that.

However, I am still not convinced that God "loves" the wicked, at least not in the way we think of love.

Quote:
Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
If the Lord loveth righteousness, then He would hate unrighteousness. In this same passage it says He hates the wicked. There are so many more verses that state the Lord abhors, hates, laughs at the wicked etc...

Quote:
Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Quote:
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
I know you all are not ignorant to these passages. But I am wary of passing over this Scripture and excusing it away dispensationally.

Consider what Matthew Henry says:

Quote:
“He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves.”
Again, just some thoughts. I am not coming down dogmatically on either side...not yet anyway
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Old 07-16-2009, 10:32 PM
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I believe the love of God is found at the Cross and if the sinner rejects it he will not find God's love. It is hard to get around Psalms 5:5 and say that God loves everyone. I'm curious what does Dr. Ruckman say about this? I don't think I've heard him talk about it in his sermons.

Another thing to realize is that God's hate isn't like our hate. God wants people to come to the Cross, but at the same time. God sees a sinner as an enemy because of that sin in them.

Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
 

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