[greenbear]

JaeByrd

all forms of hormonal contraception can act as an abortifacient changing the uterine lining and preventing implantation of a fertilized egg

I was not aware of this. If this is true, of which I have no doubt, then the magnitude of babies' lives which have been sacrificed in western culture is hundreds or thousands of times greater than I had realized. I would agree with Mrs. Hayseed that christians don't have to have many, or any children. Natural birth control methods (used in conjunction with each other), i.e. Calendar Rythmn, Basal temperature, etc. can be safe, simple and moral. I have a strong aversion to medical quackery (almost the entire medical establishment) and would never consent to putting all of the chemicals, hormones and poisons in my body that they prescribe.

[greenbear]

I would also like to say that every single one of us has come out of the world system when we were saved. It doesn't matter if we were raised by godly parents in a Christian home or by junkies and prostitutes in a crack house, or any other circumstance, the Lord leads us progressively into truth when He saves us. He does not condemn us for our sins, whether they be committed willingly or in ignorance. I believe that when the Lord sees fit to reveal to us something in our lives that is displeasing to Him it is at that point that we become responsible for that sin. In this matter, His mercy is extended not only to the mother but also to the little baby that is brought directly into his presence. I'm sure everyone is familiar with David's words:

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Ezekiel 23:37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.

I hope somebody who has studied the topic of children dying before the age of accountability going to be with the Lord would be able to add something here. In any case, I am fully persuaded that the Judge of all the earth does right, in His judgment I trust.

INFANT SALVATION
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org...o/infantsa.htm

[JaeByrd]

Originally Posted by greenbear

JaeByrd

I was not aware of this. If this is true, of which I have no doubt, then the magnitude of babies' lives which have been sacrificed in western culture is hundreds or thousands of times greater than I had realized.

Most people aren't. I've known pastors to suggest to a young couple to go on this or that pill till you're ready. Here is a portion from an article Brandon and I wrote listing how the various "contraceptives" work.

Abortion: Life has already begun. You already know and have tested positive that you are pregnant.

IUD: Intrauterine device. This is a small plastic or metal device inserted into the cavity of the uterus through the vagina. Does not prevent conception from occurring. It creates a hostile environment in the uterus preventing implantation. In addition the IUD has been known to cause infection, repeated miscarriages and sterility.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration stated in an official report that its effectiveness is “in direct proportion to the quantity and quality of the inflammatory response which it engenders.” The report summarizes the various types of IUDs and the various theories of action, and states that there “is one common thread…” They all ” interfere in some manner with the implantation of the fertilized ovum in the uterine cavity.” (Second Report on IUD’s, Dec. 1978 U.S. Dept of HEW, Food and Drug Administration Document 017-012-00276-5)

RU-486: The same as an abortion, only this time without surgical procedures…It is taken after the mother misses her period and the baby is at least two weeks old. It cuts off an essential hormonal nutrient, progesterone, and the baby withers on the vine, dies and drops off. It has been tried as a once a month menses inducer, but has caused such an upset to her cycle and body rhythms, and has not prevented pregnancies, that such use has been abandoned. (Santen & Haspels, “Failure of RU-486 as a Monthly Contraceptive,” Contraception, vol. 35, no.5, May 1987, p. 433)

The Morning-After Pill: A high dosage of synthetic estrogen. This can work in one of two ways depending on where a woman is in her cycle. If a woman takes it prior to ovulation, the high level of estrogen should block that ovulation, preventing fertilization from happening. If it isn’t in time to prevent ovulation the estrogen will also change the lining of the uterus preventing a fertilized egg from implanting.

Combination Pill: Estrogen inhibits ovulation by suppressing hormones, fooling the body into thinking its already pregnant, thus an egg is not released. Because high doses of estrogen have caused medical problems, lower and lower dosages of estrogen are being used in pills today. The lower the estrogen, the more likely you are to have breakthrough ovulation. Progesterone inhibits ovulation, thickens cervical mucus impeding the travel of sperm to the uterus. If this were the only way the pill worked it would indeed be a contraceptive and not an abortifacient. But, the third way it works is changing the uterine lining so implantation of the fertilized egg into the endometrium does not occur.

“In a natural cycle, the uterus lining thickens under the influence of estrogen during the first part of the cycle, and then matures under the influence of both progesterone and estrogen after ovulation. This development sequence is not possible during a pill cycle because both progestin and estrogen are present throughout the cycle. EVEN IF OVULATION AND CONCEPTION DID OCCUR, SUCCESSFUL IMPLANTATION WOULD BE UNLIKELY” (Felicia Stewart, M.D.;Felicia Guest; Gary Stewart, M.D. and Robert Hatcher, M.D..; My Body, My Health, Consumers Union, pgs. 169,170).

Mini-Pill: Contains progesterone only. Inhibits ovulation, thickens cervical mucus, changes the lining of the uterus so that implantation does not happen should conception occur.

According to “Maternity & Gynecologic Care: The Nurse and the Family” by Irene M. Bobak, (RN,MS,PhD, FAAN, Professor Emerita, San Francisco State University), and Margaret Duncan Jensen, (RN,MS, Professor Emerita, San Jose State University: “Oral progestins. The mini-pill of 0.5 mg or less of a progestational agent daily presumably impairs fertility. Ovulation may occur. Progestational impact on cervical mucus decreases sperm penetration and alters endometrial maturation to discourage implantation should conception occur. (Fifth ed., published by Mosby, 1993, page 1313.)

Depo-Provera: Injectable form of Progestin taken every 3 months. (see Mini-Pill)

Nor-plant: Progestin Implant can be left in up to 5 years. (see Mini-Pill)

It is impossible to tell or say how often which mechanism works in any given cycle. Or how many times breakthrough ovulation occurs, conception takes place, and implantation is stopped. The risks are higher the lower the estrogen dose or with the progesterone only forms.

[Luke]

It's hardly a hard case. There is no grounds in the Bible for having child after child, unless you are Adam or Noah (Not even Abraham had many). I'm quite cynical at the moment of the whole Independent Baptist movement, after being hurt very deeply from being in it. But the women that pop out a baby every 9 months and think that everyone else should be doing it and elevate themselves as spiritual above others just tick me off. If you actually WANT a baby every 9 months and can SUPPORT it, go for it. But I don't think it's right to do just because you think you are "replenishing the earth", and you've taken a command given to Adam and Noah and applying it to yourself.

Anyway, my wife and I want kids but can't really afford to have children yet. Some people say "Just trust God" and we do, and because we trust God we are using contraception (none of the above ones though), because we trust that God is supplying our needs right now, and He will let us know when the time is right for us to have children. I have many problems of my own that I need to deal with before we bring a child into this world.

[greenbear]

I had a handle on the false teacher thing, but I had no idea how like Israel at the time of Christ the "church" is today. Thank God for christians who share the truth about things like "The Pill" as well as many other lies of the world.

But God help "christian" hypocrites. Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

[JaeByrd]

Originally Posted by Luke

But the women that pop out a baby every 9 months and think that everyone else should be doing it and elevate themselves as spiritual above others just tick me off.

I have an issue in regards to that in that some go so far as to encourage getting pregnant again by weaning early. In the 1-3 month old range switching them over to formula. Leaving things in God's hands/timing/control is one thing, but purposely weaning early so you can get pregnant 3-6 months earlier than you would having a normal nursing relationship is stacking the deck in favor of more pregnancies/larger families in my opinion. Not to mention robbing your already born child of what God intended for nourishment and immunities.

In a natural, non scheduled, breastfeeding relationship fertility returns in the 3-9 month range. Depending on how much solids a baby starts to eat and how much nursing is continued. Fertility returns in the 6th or 7th month on average and is diminished until full weaning. (1-2 years is the medically recommended length of time and many of the benefits aren't seen until a full 6 months minimum of nursing.) Until fully weaned some cycles don't even make enough hormones to release an egg. By weaning in the 1-3 month time, before you are even introducing baby food, you have to substitute an artificial milk. If they full wean that early or don't even bother with breastfeeding fertility can return in a cycle or two and they can average one child a year.

Granted the variables change from each couple and some can naturally conceive that early even while nursing, but the very famous quiver full family does this as does several others I've seen. Most of those that really do just leave it to as it happens space out more like 18-24 months between babies not 9-12 months. Some even longer or not at all.

[Hayseed]

I agree with Luke,if couples wish to pop babies out every nine months,go for it.
Others for their own personal reasons who are choosing to wait until the time is right for them as a couple,go for it too.

Neither group should have to explain themselves.

I used to get ABOVE RUBIES a magazine from our church and it was a guilt trip without packing any bags.Luggage loads of true stories of mother's and their ten kids,baking bread and homeschooling,growing vegetables etc...but!the thing is the slant was,"YOU SHOULD BE BEARING KIDS TOO,BAKING BREAD,etc or your'e not a ruby woman.

Iam a grandmother,past child bearing but had thirteen pregnancies myself with only three live sons and an adopted daughter and I would never give that magazine or my 2cents worth to my daughters-in-law that my son's married,or lay any burden on any of my married children and their spouses about an out of bounds Area to me in their married lives.They have come to me and talked to me and I have just hugged them and left it all to God,and I feel very blessed they can come to me and tell me their hopes and dreams about having children oneday.I want more grandchildren as my two have started school,I will not hurry my daughters-in-law up or lay an ugly burden on them that they are sinning for using contraception..I will leave my nose out of their business.

People are too free with what other's "should" or shouldn't be doing.

God Himself must have planned limited births for Eve before the Fall,since after the fall he would increase her conceptions as part of the curse.

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Paul said: What conclusions have you guys come to on this?

Sis. Hayseed said:People are too free with what other's "should" or shouldn't be doing.

The reason this is being discussed isn't because we want to tell others what to do, but because Bro. Paul asked what conclusions we had come to. But for any of us to come down with a hard and fast rule, you are right, that would be wrong.

I again will state that I am in 100% agreement with what Sis. Jaebyrd has to say. If one believes that conception begins at fertilization hormonal birth control is in my opinion wrong. But as I've said before in another thread that I think God gives grace in ignorance of this fact...But if I was asked by anyone on this subject I would also be wrong to not inform them of the scientific fact of how hormonal birth control works. After that, it is in their hands and not my place to judge.

Be blessed!

[Hayseed]

What is an effective birth control though,apart from abstinence?

I have found that the use of condoms can fail,(I got a blessing and nappies from condom use.)

My daughter and her hubby used condomes,spermicidal jelly and the I.U.D and tragically the baby conceived attached to the follopian tube.My daughter's life was in danger and she had two little girls and a husband.She couldn't be operated on and so my husband and I sat with her while she was put on chemotherapy at a friends house close to the hospital.I can't describe what we went through watching this and just praying for the Lord to receive our grandchild.She had to be sterilised permanently after this.(Another bone of contention among christians.)

Her second child had been conceived while she was on the pill.

Eight months ago our middle son and his wife were so happy expecting their first baby,and at nearly four months she miscarried.They have been trying for another baby and so far it is not happening for them.They were previously using the pill.

I don't know what the answer is,to what is acceptable..nothing is 100% but whatever is the preferred method couples use it needs to be the most effective with what is available.

I just know it is very personal and it can be that each method has it's sadness's attached.
I don't have an answer in a fallen world for birth control apart from liberty.

Wishy washy I know but it's hard to be a young couple having to manage that very personal area of your lives,without sinning in some way if a conception happens.

The topic is "Contraception a liberty or sin?"

It is not asking what methods are used,or what the failure rate is leading to a conception taking place...just,liberty or sin?
From that question alone as it is worded I would have to say liberty because no matter what methods we use..nasty experiences can happen.

Very difficult for folk.

Mrs Hayseed

[Hayseed]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

The reason this is being discussed isn't because we want to tell others what to do, but because Bro. Paul asked what conclusions we had come to. But for any of us to come down with a hard and fast rule, you are right, that would be wrong.

I do agree with what you are saying here Amanda.That is the wisdom Iam talking about.

Mrs Hayseed