Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #11  
Old 05-02-2008, 01:30 PM
sophronismos
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Originally Posted by fundy View Post
The book of Job is not just poetry, it is an account of Job's experience when God allowed Satan to test him.
I wasn't saying it is just poetry. I was saying that poetry is harder to translate than prose.

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Originally Posted by fundy View Post
What makes you think the people of that time had never seen Dinosaurs? God tells Job to ....Job 40:15 "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox"....why would God tell Job to "Behold" an animal that he could not, or had never, seen?
When I said "(and they had never seen dinosaurs)" I was referring to the translators, not to Job.

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Originally Posted by fundy View Post
The 54 or so translators of the KJB disagree with you, if they didnt, they would have used the Geneva rendering in their translation work. No offense to you, but I will stick with the unparalelled scholarship of these men rather than what might seem more likely to someone making a superficial examination of the texts.
Actually, the modern versions agree with the KJV (as do the other older English translations) against the Geneva in rendering these as statements rather than questions, so the Geneva rendering is overwhelmingly in the minority. But I wasn't suggesting the text of the KJV should be changed. I was baiting for an explanation. "Maybe you have never been duck hunting,..." Good point, a dinosaur under water would fit under the reeds. You achieved what I hoped you would--you explained why the KJV rendering is right.

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Originally Posted by fundy View Post
It is difficult to understand, but just because it is, is no reason to cast it aside in favour of an "easier" to read version that in all probability has lost some essence of the intended meaning in the process of "clarification"...2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I agree. But are you saying you can't make heads or tales of it either?

Job 12:5 KJV "He that is ready to slip with his feet is as a lamp despised in the thought of him that is at ease."

The Geneva agrees with the KJV here. Coverdale has a paraphrase "Godliness is a light despised in the hearts of the rich, and is set for them to stumble upon" which I certainly do not think is what the passage is saying!

The perplexing thing is that Job is clearly talking about himself. Job 12:4-5 KJV "I am as one mocked of his neighbour, who calleth upon God, and he answereth him: the just upright man is laughed to scorn. He that is ready to slip with his feet is as a lamp despised in the thought of him that is at ease."

Is Job sincerely referring to himself as "He that is ready to slip with his feet"? That seems unlikely. Secondly, it seems unlikely to call a man who is slipping "a lamp." But I suppose you could say that those who slip and fall are ignored as a person at ease ignores a lamp. That statement makes sense, but how does it apply to Job? They are not ignoring Job, but pestering the fire out of him, and he is not ready to slip, but maintains his innocency and claims that he is righteous. So then, it makes more sense to think that Job would say here something more like "A lamp is despised in the thought of one who is at ease; [...] made ready for those whose feet slip" referring to himself as a lamp, his friends as those who are at ease, and explaining also that he is made ready not for them (not for those Phariseeical Calvinistists at ease) but for those who are slipping who may observe Job's example and rather than despise him as they do, use him as a lamp to lighten the path of their feet. That makes more sense. Does that mean it is right? You tell me. What is certainly wrong is the NIV "Men at ease have contempt for misfortune as the fate of those whose feet are slipping" because the word lamp is gone altogether in this...I don't even know what to call it since it goes way beyond paraphrase in the way it mangles the text. The NKJV and YLT seem the most sensical and they achieve it without changing the words (they merely arrange them in different order than the KJV, but he words are the same base words), YLT is "A torch -- despised in the thoughts of the secure Is prepared for those sliding with the feet." KJV is "He that is ready to slip with his feet is as a lamp despised in the thought of him that is at ease." Again, in the YLT it makes sense that Job would say this of himself. But what the KJV has could hardly be said by Job of himself but seems more or less to be a proverb that no man can decipher. I sure wish someone would help me out in deciphering it.

Last edited by sophronismos; 05-02-2008 at 01:36 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-02-2008, 03:20 PM
MDOC
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Originally Posted by sophronismos View Post
Job 12:5 KJV "He that is ready to slip with his feet is as a lamp despised in the thought of him that is at ease."

But what the KJV has could hardly be said by Job of himself but seems more or less to be a proverb that no man can decipher. I sure wish someone would help me out in deciphering it.
"a torch" (lamp) is an object of contempt in the thoughts of him who rests securely (is at ease), though it was prepared for the falterings of the feet (Proverbs 25:19). "Thoughts" and "feet" are in contrast; also rests "securely," and "falterings." The wanderer, arrived at night time, contemptuously throws aside the torch which had guided his uncertain steps through the darkness. As the torch is to the wanderer, so Job to his friends. Once they gladly used his aid in their need; now they in prosperity mock him in his need.

Read the other refs pertaining to torch, lamp that guides the feet. Throw away the lamp, and you slip with your feet.

Last edited by MDOC; 05-02-2008 at 03:29 PM.
  #13  
Old 05-03-2008, 07:12 AM
fundy
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A commentary from the E.SWORD program on the verse is as follows;

Job 12:5 - Slip with his feet - And fall into trouble; tho' he had formerly shone as a lamp, he is then looked upon as a lamp going out, as the snuff of a candle, which we throw to the ground and tread upon; and accordingly is despised in the thought of him that is at ease.

Quote "When I said "(and they had never seen dinosaurs)" I was referring to the translators, not to Job."

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

But doesnt this just highlight the integrity of the translators? All these highly educated men, never having seen the creature that they is described in the texts that they are translating, yet they resist the temptation to "correct" the mysterious description and carry on translating the words just as they believe God intended them to be.

Contrast this humble approach to Gods word with modern "scholars" and their perversions of translation.

Fundy
 

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