Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:13 PM
Clyde Harris
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Default A past dialog with a Youth Pastor, C.O.G.

Youth Past,
Let me first preface my reply with, it is evident that you believe that no English Bible is in perfection, I understand your position of doubt , and realize that you will not see the truth of a perfect preserved Word for the English speaking world. In that environment I will continue to address your attempts to discredit the KJB, but not to convince you .but to remain in a position of faith to what God promised, that he would indeed preserve his word for all generations, as stated in Psalms KJB .
However, the modern versions have changed this context in various ways as shown below.
Psalm 12:6-7 (King James Bible)
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
However, the NIV you mentioned , as do most all of the new versions completely change the context of this age old passage.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
Psalm 12:6-7 (Today's New International Version)
(Changes the context to keeping people )
6 And the words of the LORD are flawless,
like silver purified in a crucible,
like gold [a] refined seven times.
7 You, LORD, will keep the needy safe
and will protect us forever from the wicked,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
Psalm 12:6-7 (New American Standard Bible)
(Changes the context to preserving him, who ever him is to mean.)_
6 The (A)words of the LORD are pure words;
As silver (B)tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.
7 You, O LORD, will keep them;
You will (C)preserve him from this generation forever.

Psalm 12:6-7 (Amplified Bible)
(Changes the context to preserving us and changes purified seven times to seven times over)
6 The words and promises of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times over.
7 You will keep them and preserve them, O Lord; You will guard and keep us from this [evil] generation forever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psalm 12:6-7 (New International Reader's Version)
(Changes seven times to seven times over and to keep us, instead of the word)

6 The words of the Lord are perfect.
They are like silver made pure in a clay furnace.
They are like silver made pure seven times over.
7 Lord, you will keep us safe.
You will always keep sinners from hurting us.
This is enough to show the patterns of perversions taking place, none completely agree with the other , I guess you can pick what you like!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(My comments on this will be in quotations.)
Clyde: Sorry, didn't realize I was off topic.
You have asnwered yes to the question that someone can get saved reading a version of the Bible besides the KJV. The Bible teaches that no one can be saved apart from the word of God. If someone can read a so-called "perversion," then what you call a perversion is is also the word of God.
( The Word of God you are referring to is none other Than Jesus Christ himself. As the KJB says in John)
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

(So yes, you are right no one can be saved apart from the word and that word is none other than Jesus Christ. Parts of the perversions in the modern versions are exampled in Psalm 12:6-7 above.)

I was just like you until recently. I went on a mission trip last year, and God began to open my eyes. God promises to preserve HIs word. You minimize His ability to do so by giving man enough power to pervert it.

(You err in assumption; I have not given man this ability. Just as the Holy Ghost was behind and gave the king James translators the ability to translate properly his word, our enemy Satan is behind the modern bible perversions.
You comment makes the assumption that God has not already preserved his word in English , this is your position not mine and your accusation that I have minimized Gods ability is a mute point for my position , and could only apply to your position that God has not done so.)

I want to point something out to you about Church history. Did you know that @ 200 years before Jesus was born that God had the OT translated into a language that everybody could read; Jew and Gentile. That language was Koine Greek. Interestingly, in Galatians 4, Paul inspired of the Holy Spirit informs us, "when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth His Son." Part of the time being ripe was that the Scriptures were in a language that everybody could read for themselves. Funny how that doesn't apply to the current time and that this translating stopped in 1611.

(You wrongly again assume that I did not know about the Koine Greek, I have studied this issue for over two years. Your fullness of time reference in Galatians makes no sense in relation to a common language of koine Greek being spoken and used for scriptures. I have no idea how the rest of your comment, "read for themselves and does not apply to he current time", applies to a preserved word in English. I have never claimed that translating Gods word into other languages is somehow not appropriate. As you hinted my position claimed or that I must believe, quote, “this translating stopped in 1611 “ , I guess you are trying to say that I think other language translation can not be done, again a unfounded assumption . However, as far as the English preserved word of God yes, no further translation is needed, as I firmly believe that it has been done in the KJB 1611-1769 edition. Which has been my position of faith since 2004 )

Nowhere in our KJV does God declare the KJV to be the only way God would preserve His word in English. To teach this as doctrine when it is not expressly stated is legalism.

(.You have again made a serious error in the claim that nowhere in the KJB does God declare that the KJB to be the only way God would preserve his word in English. We could also say that nowhere in the KJB does God Claim that he would not preserve his word in the KJB. In fact, there are many things God has not said in his word. A very weak argument.
You have also erred in defining legalism, legalism is subjecting the Jewish laws and ordinances onto Christians as a part of their salvation, it has nothing to do with the issue of a perverted or a non-perverted Bible. Galatians addresses the issues of legalism; you might want to study it so next you will know what legalism is and what it is not.)

It's sad that someone would sit in judgement of another believer and insist they struggle to read a Bible version they get nothing out of. It's even sadder that the things most KJV Onlyist claim can be shown to them in their own Bibles, but most won't see it.

( you have a tendency to throw labels around and try to make it appear the a believer in the king James is somehow is trying to judge another believer and insist that "they struggle to read a bible version And get nothing out of".
Then you have the audacity to make the claim the KJB believer has his or her own Bible. The truth is, it is the modern version readers that have their own Bibles, and these personal choice Bibles all read different. Your bible accusation applies to the modern version reader, not to the KJB reader. The KJB has been time tested for over 400 years. The modern versions readers are the new comers, they are the ones trying to change everything and make Gods word fit their lack of faith in his preserved word)

Take fo example the following verse KJV Onlyists like to use. In modern translations, Joseph is rendered his father. This is shouted from the rooftops of how liberals are trying to pervert God's word by chopping away at the diety of Christ by reminding you that Joseph isn't his biological father. Folks, this should insult your intelligence because anyone who would preach this is telling you that you are too stupid to figure this out for yourself. Yet the KJV does the exact thing that they are denouncing. See for yourself:
2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luke 2:33 KJV
2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luke 2:48 KJV

(Your example is very misleading, verse 2;48 is from Mary’s perspective, she was speaking as his mother and Joseph as his earthly stepfather. I was raised by a stepfather but my mother referred to him as my father as I did, this did not mean that he was my natural father, and anybody that knew the history of my family would have known that. In addition, when some one would refer to him in relation to me that knew, would say stepfather.
Verse 2;33 is from a narrators point of view not from the mothers perspective or point of view and the word father would not have been appropriate and it would have Mary denying his deity in that passage. This passage you used is just one in a great many passages that attack the deity of Jesus Christ,)

This is only one example.

Still on topic, answer this question for me:
If you were leaving a mission trip in central Africa and all you had was an NIV, would you give it to the African, or would you leave him with nothing?

(again you have made a faulty assumption , that I would beon a mission trip and carry a perverted bible with me , then you pose a straw man hypothesis and ask if I would do something you must very well know I would not do. This is a tactic used by sophist, as in the straw man question, have you stopped beating your wife, any way one answers incriminates. For a preacher you dialogue a lot with sophistry.)

Grace and Mercy, Clyde
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