I have a couple specific questions about the word tree vs. book in Rev. 22:9

There is such a large amount of information on the net, it's hard to get a straight answer.

First, could someone please tell me how many existing Byzantine texts that use the word tree? And how many use the word book?

It seems that there are more than 5000 Greek texts out there, and I assume that those which contain Rev. 22 in it's entirety are many fewer, but I haven't been able to get even an approximation of how many are out there.

This was my main reason for signing up. I am not totally new to textual debate, but my level of knowledge restricts me, in that I don't yet know where to look for reference material.

Thanks
Tim V.

[Josh]

The best reference there is, is actually very easily accessible. It contains all the information you could ever need about God's Word, and is 100% accurate, correct and error free. How could such a wonderful resource possibly exhist, and what is it? It's the King James Bible. Error free through Divine insiration, and preservation. The Bible says "book of life", so I believe God that it's "book of life".

[PeterAV]

Hi TimV.
You said..
I have a couple specific questions about the word tree vs. book in Rev. 22:9

First, could someone please tell me how many existing Byzantine texts that use the word tree? And how many use the word book?
*******
I don't think there are many Byzantine texts available for the ending of Revelation.
But there are plenty of wittnesses to it in the Latin and possibly other languages.
There are more witness counts that tally the Latin side in some verses. This is one of those places.


It seems that there are more than 5000 Greek texts out there, and I assume that those which contain Rev. 22 in it's entirety are many fewer, but I haven't been able to get even an approximation of how many are out there.
*******
Many of those 5,000 are mere peices and scraps of paper or velum etc., so most would not have Revelation at all. In fact, the Peshitta[150AD] was done so early that the book of Revelation was not entered into the text.

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Originally Posted by TimV

First, could someone please tell me how many existing Byzantine texts that use the word tree? And how many use the word book?

We ended up with some discussion of Rev 22:1 9on the terebinth thread.

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...1&postcount=14
Rev 22:19

Explaining the overview of the wide textual support of "book of life".

If you want exact collations there are some resources that might help, usually you seek them out through textcrit land. They take Hoskier, they multiply by Münster and then they implode the logarithmic function of various notations and analysts.

However, since you know the evidence for "book of life" is not in the Greek manuscripts, what does it matter if there are two dozen or five dozen Greek MS with "tree of life" ? As with "her purification" and the Johannine Comma, the true reading was preserved in the Latin lines and the early church writers, and is clearly the true reading with the NT teaching, fully internally strong and consistent and understandable and solid and beautiful to read and embrace. The Reformation textual giants plowed all the ground for you, leading to the purified Reformation Bible, leading to the pure and perfect King James Bible.

The textcrit world is atomistic, they will dissect and look with microscopes at the most arcane markings here and there, with no comprehension at all of the inspiration and preservation of the word of God, nor its identity in the hands of the ploughman today.

So what is your desire, to identify and know the Scriptures ? Or go into every mundane and arcane question, the microscope of minutiae ?

Shalom,
Steven

However, since you know the evidence for "book of life" is not in the Greek manuscripts, what does it matter if there are two dozen or five dozen Greek MS with "tree of life" ?

I'm not going to justify my questions to you, Steve. You offered to help. I asked a few questions. That's all there is to it. I've been polite, and not mocked you. My reasons for wanting to know how many Greek mms have tree instead of book are my own. If you could understand how little I care about what version of the Bible you read, your hair would stand up in shock.

There must be people out there who know, and I'll wait a few days, checking in here on this thread, and if you can't help me, I'll bid you all goodbye and we can all be friends.

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Originally Posted by TimV

My reasons for wanting to know how many Greek mms have tree instead of book are my own.

Ok dokay. Then I do not see any particular purpose to fish out more detailed information. To me it does not matter much if there are 30 or 75 extant Greek "Revelation 22" manuscripts, since the evidence for "book of life" is strong and solid and clear in many early writers, internal clarity and consistency, the Old Latin, the Vulgate and other lines. And I would not bother sources to find out just on the hidden whim of somebody else.

Originally Posted by TimV

If you could understand how little I care about what version of the Bible you read, your hair would stand up in shock.

Naaah. We know that many 'Christians' have absolutely no sense or even concern for the purity, integrity and perfection of the Bible. Nor do the skeptics and others. Apparently you are unfamiliar with the Bible discussions.

Incidentally I left out one other early evidence. "Book of life" is far more consistent with the commentary of Irenaeus in the 2nd century.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studi...s/05-ag-he.htm
IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES - BOOK V.

(3) For after the times of the kingdom, he says, "I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them."(4) And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning "the dead, great and small." "The sea," he says, "gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover," he says, "the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death."(5) Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire.(6) "And if any one," it is said, "was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire."

No indication from Irenaeus that he believed that God takes men's part out of the tree of life and clearly Irenaeus knew Revelation quite well. This was in the 2nd century !

Revelation 22:19 (KJB)
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book.

Oh, on a textcrit forum, Gary Dykes summarized the Herman Hoskier collation evidence for "book of life" as:

57 (Tisch) for MS 296 circa XVI century - Paris
119 (Tisch) for MS 1075 circa XIV century - Mt. Athos
141 (Tisch) for MS 2049 circa XVI century - Athens

Clearly if that is accurate, then the middle one is the more significant, I dunno offhand why that is not given in various web articles. He also conjectures that one of the Stephanus Greek manuscripts (now non-extant) may have had "book of life".

Shalom,
Steven

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

This short note about Erasmus may help understand the wisdom of the Reformation Bible scholars, who were well aware that the Greek, while generally the fountainhead, was subject to some corruption, especially in the first three centuries. (The Old Latin was translated by the 2nd century and thus could easily be in harmony with the true readings where such corruption occurred.) And these textual giants (today we barely have pygmies, with a few exceptions, please no height-sensitive people, this is all metaphorical) fully understood the immense value of the early church writer evidences.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/bib-e.html
"The Annotations show that quotations from the early Latin ecclesiastical writers ..... were often decisive in his choice of readings"

Thus Irenaeus, Ambrose and the Speculum (very likely Augustine) and the others would be a very major consideration to Erasmus, and similarly Stephanus and Beza. And the wisdom of the Reformation Bible scholarship underlies the excellence and majesty and perfection of the King James Bible.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Time to add one simple point, which largely speaks for itself, from the word of God.

Philippians 4:3
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

And now our verse in consideration.

Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

TimV, my prayer and heart for you is that your entry in the book of life is not stuck on a tree and unavailable ! Be careful that you are busy straining at gnats and letting the camel trains go by.

Shalom,
Steven