[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by chette777

Remember it is men who attribute the design of Lucifer to music.

No, I think Ezekiel 28:13 is fairly clear that God created him with organs (plural) within him capable of making music:

Ezekiel 28:13b ...the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Tabrets and pipes are associated with other instruments in scripture, and with song:

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

Genesis 31:27 Wherefore didst thou flee away secretly, and steal away from me; and didst not tell me, that I might have sent thee away with mirth, and with songs, with tabret, and with harp?

Originally Posted by chette777

There is absolutely no Biblical grounds that Lucifer was a heavenly worship leader.

The Biblical grounds have already been posted. If Satan, who is called the "son of the morning" in Isaiah 14:12, was among the "morning" stars singing and sons of God shouting for joy in Job 38:7, then why wouldn't he be leading them, considering his musical abilities and authoritative position revealed throughout the scriptures.

Originally Posted by chette777

...the reason the purpose was not mentioned in scriptures is because at no time during this current 24/7TQ did Lucifer lead worship in heaven.

Huh? How does that relate to the OP?

[Winman]

You are something else Chette, you told me to "take a hike" because I disagreed with your Gap Theory (and still do) in your " The Non-Evolutionary Gap Theory" thread, but you try to introduce it in many threads.

These very verses in Ezekiel contradict your theory if you will notice:

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


What is the first thing God tells us here? He tells us that Satan or Lucifer "hast been" (past tense) in Eden, the garden of God.

Now, according to your theory, Satan fell between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. But we know the Garden of Eden was not created until at least the third day when God made the dry land appear, and then caused the earth to bring forth grass, herb yielding seed, and trees yielding fruit.

I think even you would agree that a garden should contain plants.

Then God tells us that Satan or Lucifer was perfect in his ways from the day he was created UNTIL iniquity was found in him.

This contradicts your Gap Theory completely. However, for those of us who believe Satan fell sometime after the 6 day creation (plus the 7th day God rested), there is no contradiction whatsoever. I believe Satan could have been in the Garden of Eden for as long as 100 years before he deceived Eve. That is just a rough estimate based on the births of Cain and Abel, Cain murdering Abel when they were adults (they both had livlihoods) and then Seth being conceived and born after Abel's death when Adam (and Eve) were 130 years old (Gen 5:3)

So, approximately 100 years were available, but Satan could have rebelled anytime after Day 7 until Cain was conceived (after Adam and Eve's fall).

But, back to the subject, I have read these verses before and was amazed to read Satan was covered with these stones, the fact he was also covered with musical instruments escaped me. He must be an extraodinary looking creature.

Five of the stones mentioned are also mentioned in the gates of the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21. Little side-track here, but here is a site that shows the 12 stones mentioned in Rev. 21.

http://www.rivercitylures.50megs.com/njd/ston/ston.htm

I agree with the others, while we cannot know for sure he led the heavenly choir, there is certainly the great possibility that he did, seeing he was "prepared" with these instruments, and his position as one of the highest angels (Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth).

[chette777]

I still have seen no PROOF from the Bible Lucifer ever was a musician, worship leader or anything else. Where are the scriptures to prove Lucifer's "musical abilities"? Isa 5:12 is a very poor text to use to prove anything about Lucifer being a musician seeing it speaks of Israel's rebellion to God. this is one of those places even if you put verses together you can't prove the point at hand.

you are all quick to defend a description interpreted by a man. But where are you Bible proofs that Lucifer ever played any music?

Pipes and Tabrets are also known as plumbing fixtures (pipes connected to valves with a small reservoir) he could be a beautiful walking oil lamp as far as those descriptions go.

[chette777]

Winman,

Day might be a reference to a a descriptive stating point of his origin, not necessarily a specific day like one of the six days you are referring too. Remember in our 24/7Time Quantum or Time Measurement if you like. words like day have to be used that you and I will have a point of understanding. there is no way for us to understand Eternity until we are perfected so God chooses to use words we understand. However that doesn't mean they are all in the same reference to the same thing.

covering like that of a veil, or pan cover, valve cover? it says the cherub that covereth. but never says what he covered. If you can find a Bible verse that shows what it was he covered I would be glad to see it. if you can't find it ask why God didn't tells us what it was he covered?

God's word tells us to rightly divide. divide the scriptures if you will that are pictures of eternity form those of of the 24/7 weeks of man. you will be surprised to discover some interesting facts about those scriptures and the things they describe.

[Winman]

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

The definition of viols is:

1) a skin-bag, jar, pitcher

a) skin-bottle, skin

b) jar, pitcher (earthen)

2) harp, lute, guitar, musical instrument

A skin-bag, jar, or pitcher do not produce noise, so this verse must be referring to a musical instrument.

[chette777]

a tabret is also a drum like seat, a harp is also a seive that separates small particle from larger ones, Pipes are tubes.

While verse 12 speaks specifically of Lucifer the surround verse speak of an earthly king. the verse on Lucifer is mysteriously inserted for us to have a certain truth placed into our understanding concerning him and his power over the world and that in the end no one will fear him.

argue argue argue is it all you know how to do?

[Winman]

Chette

I like sparring with you a little, sure you noticed.

Actually, I agree with you to a point. Yes, there are no direct scriptures that say Lucifer played music. However, the original verses (Eze 28:13) questioned here point to musical instruments. Then, when you compare the verse I showed (Isa 14:11) it makes perfect sense.

This would be a case of Occam's Razor which states "the maxim that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

What that says is when you have a choice of assumptions, pick the assumption that fits most easily.

So, if Eze 28:11 says Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments, and Isa 14:11 says Lucifer made noise with musical instruments, you have an assumption that fits neatly and does not need any additonal assumptions.

So myself, I believe Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments and played music (or at least made noise) with them.

This idea also has support among other theologians. J. Dwight Pentecost wrote of these verses:

"Musical instruments were originally designed to be means of praising and worshiping God. It was not necessary for Lucifer to learn to play a musical instrument to praise God. If you please, he had a built-in pipe organ, or, he was an organ . . . Lucifer didn’t have to look for someone to play the organ so that he could sing the doxology -- He was a doxology."

[geologist]

Originally Posted by Winman

This would be a case of Occam's Razor which states "the maxim that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

What that says is when you have a choice of assumptions, pick the assumption that fits most easily.

So, if Eze 28:11 says Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments, and Isa 14:11 says Lucifer made noise with musical instruments, you have an assumption that fits neatly and does not need any additonal assumptions.

So myself, I believe Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments and played music (or at least made noise) with them.

Winman, I find myself agreeing with you on this issue. I have been trying to envision what the Anointed Cherub must have looked like, so I can illustrate him in my movie project. The fact that the Bible verses, and cross references, seem to clearly indicate some kind of built-in musical ability in the creature is certainly something to ponder. My question, at this point, is this: Are we talking about some kind of bag-piped dragon or reptilian like creature, or what?

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Winman

Actually, I agree with you to a point. Yes, there are no direct scriptures that say Lucifer played music. However, the original verses (Eze 28:13) questioned here point to musical instruments. Then, when you compare the verse I showed (Isa 14:11) it makes perfect sense.

This would be a case of Occam's Razor which states "the maxim that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

What that says is when you have a choice of assumptions, pick the assumption that fits most easily.

So, if Eze 28:11 says Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments, and Isa 14:11 says Lucifer made noise with musical instruments, you have an assumption that fits neatly and does not need any additonal assumptions.

So myself, I believe Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments and played music (or at least made noise) with them.

Good points Bro. Winman. There are some things in scripture that are not clearly defined, and a good sense assumption is what we end up with.

[chette777]

unfortunately it says pipes and tebrets not musical instruments.

Isa 14:11 has more to do with the celebrations of victory of the king of Babylon than it does describing Lucifer's calling to be a worship leader. but where did Lucifer if he was such a beautiful creature pay his pipes and Tabrets? Where are the stones of fire (one of those non existent places)

Esekiel 28 decribe him, it does not say or describe the use of the pipes and tabrets. that is a guess at best.

Geo,

A cherub looks like a Ox and and Ox like a cherub study these verses and their surrounding verses closely.

Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Eze 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

these are the only two faces that don't match an Ox and a Cherub all others have their match. so a Cherub looks like an ox. large rounded eye, small horns, legs of a calf, and a tail. Hence why some would say the Bible stole its description of Satan from Roman or Greek mythological creature called Pan. but in reality the Bible has always described him as such and mythology borrowed their description of Pan from the Bible.

Once you have this upright Ox Cherub with wings cover him with These stones. they don't have to be whole pieces you can cut and paste them as needed. I am reminded of the different colors certain fish and Birds give off their scales and feathers that reflect blues, greens reds, purples, orange and reds the whole spectrum of the rainbow.

This is what the anointed cherub looked like an OX of many colors

KI,

Why doesn't the Bible go further to describe the use of these Pipes and Tabrets?

Could it be in the 24/7 he has never used them?