I know when to not get involved in endless debates by someone who is more stuck on their theories than the truth. I quoted Galatians because it clearly stated Abraham believed the Gospel. There is only one Gospel of salvation. If you don't believe that, you need to go back and reread Galatians 1. Anyone believes any other gospel, and they are damned.

[Jeff]

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

WRONG! where do you see "righteously angry"?

WOW!! Hey man you have the same name as me, good name huh? Its about time someone who knows how to rightly divide the AV 1611 and let it roar!! Please keep the post coming. One thing about Abraham, is that although he was under grace, before the law, he was not justified until years later( Gen 22),after he got his imputed righteousness in Gen 15:6 - look up James 2:21,24. We got our justification the instant we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ ( John 1:12, Rom 4:5) Abraham, and any other Old Testament saint/patriarch, was not born again. Psalm 22:30-31 told Nicodemus that it could not take place until AFTER John 3:14. Abraham didn't go to the 3rd Heaven, nor did any of the other OT saints. They were in Paradise, or Abrahams bosom, that is where Abel, Joseph, Daniel, Jacob etc. went when they died. That is where Christ went after the crucifixion ( Eph 4:8-10 Matt 27:52, 12:40), and led them out of there. Now because of 1 Cor 15:1-4, every born again child of God goes straight to the 3rd Heaven( Phil 1:23, 2 Tim 4:8).

Romans 3 clearly teaches he was justified when Genesis 15:6 says he was:

Romans 4:1-3 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham was justified before he was circumcised, before Isaac was born:

Romans 4:9-13 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Luke]

I think a big problem people have with this "different" salvation in different dispensations is a lack of understanding regarding hell and the atonement.

When Old testament saints died, where did they go? Did they go to be with God? Of course not, they couldn't, because their sins had not been washed away. They went to "paradise", "abraham's bosom", and waited there until Jesus Christ came after dying on the cross.

When New testament church age saints die, where do they go? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We go to heaven with Jesus Christ.

Now, we are both saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. However, in order for a New Testament saint to be saved by the blood, all he has to do is Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

An old testament saint does not know Jesus Christ. They have no permanent sacrifice. All they have is the Law. If they keep the Law, BY FAITH IN GOD (not perfection), then they would go to paradise, where their sins would soon be cleansed. However, if they deliberately disobeyed God, despite his many proofs of his power (he even LIVED AMONGST them in the tabernacle in the wilderness), they would go to hell.

[Stvvv1611]

Originally Posted by jerry

I know when to not get involved in endless debates by someone who is more stuck on their theories than the truth. I quoted Galatians because it clearly stated Abraham believed the Gospel. There is only one Gospel of salvation. If you don't believe that, you need to go back and reread Galatians 1. Anyone believes any other gospel, and they are damned.

Romans 3 clearly teaches he was justified when Genesis 15:6 says he was:

Romans 4:1-3 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Jerry…you’re still missing Paul’s argument concerning Abraham in Romans 4. Paul is distinguishing between a justification based on a work element under OT economy from a justification based on a belief element alone which was to come upon the Gentile. Paul makes various contrasts in the first three chapters, that I’ve tried my best to show in previous posts, and then drives home his point using unique experiences regarding both Abraham and David. Both Abraham and David illustrate something different; things common to justification for the Gentile today. I promise not to make this an endless debate, but do need one more post after this to effectively deal with Abraham and David as presented in Romans 4.

As pointed out before…your position, that God justified the Jew the same way that God planned and justifies the Gentile today, is identical to that of the NIV.

Romans 3:30 (KJV) 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 3:30 (NIV) 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

No jerry… God justifying the ‘uncircumcision (Gentile) through faith’ is not the same as God justifying ‘the circumcision (Jew) by faith’! They’re NOT ‘same faith’!! In my next post I’ll show you exactly when and how Abraham became the father of both Jew and Gentile in context of Romans 4. I’ll also show you how David fits in. Jerry…I’m not trying to prove you wrong; I’m trying to prove the scripture right!

I will again prove the perversion of the NIV as I turn my attention to the ‘faith of Christ’ in this post. Till now, I’ve focused on the faith of God and faith of man in the OT. How about a sub title for this post before giving definitions…by way of review?

FAITH OF GOD – FAITH OF MAN – FAITH OF CHRIST

Faith of God = speaks to God’s credence; God’s trustworthiness and faithfulness to be believable.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Faith of Man = speaks to man’s credence; his faithfulness in obedience to God.

Habakkuk 2:4 …but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Jerry…this is exactly what Paul is pointing out in Romans 3:30 stating that; ‘God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith’.

Let’s use the ‘blood’ principle by way of illustrating this point; Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

A. The LORD shed blood for Adam & Eve

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

B. Abel offered blood for his own sin…

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

C. Job offered blood for the sins of his family

Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

D. Job’s ‘friends’ offered blood

Job 42:8-9 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job. 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.

E. Abraham was offering blood between Gen 12 & 14

Genesis 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 13:4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD.

F. Israel offered blood yet in Egypt

Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

G. Priests offered blood for the sins of Israel under Mosaic Law once a year

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD…34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

And…blood was offered daily for the sins of individuals!

Leviticus 4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Jerry…please make special note to this ‘by faith’ and ‘blood’ principle because it is going to weigh in heavily when dealing with David in Romans 4! The Mosaic law covenanted for righteousness and forgiveness of sin… but, not for today!

Now, in turning the corner…

Romans 3:21-22 (KJV) 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Before defining the ‘faith of Christ’, let’s look once again at the perversion of the NIV in this and other verses regarding the ‘faith of Christ’:

Romans 3:22 (KJV) 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:22 (NIV) 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Philippians 3:9 (KJV) 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Philippians 3:9 (NIV) 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 (NIV) 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

The NIV absolutely perverts a doctrinal contrast Paul is making! Paul seeks to make the following contrast that the NIV destroys:

The ‘faith of God’ < > The ‘faith of Christ’
The righteousness of God with law < > The righteousness of God through Christ
Justification by works < > Justification by believing

Now to define the ‘faith of Christ’:

Faith of Christ = speaks to Christ’s credence; Christ’s trustworthiness and faithfulness to be believable based on His accomplishments at the cross on our behalf.

The law was dead! Man had to provide the ‘life’ through obedience. Christ is alive and we’re ‘found in Him’ complete (Col 2:9-10)! Amen!

In each of the compared verses above the NIV doubles on ‘believing in Christ’ and emphasizes a believing in Christ where Paul is making a dogmatic contrast between faithful man under a dead law for righteousness to that of a faithful Christ unto believing men for righteousness!

Paul most definitely puts an emphasis on believing and that emphasis is put on believing in the ‘faith of Christ’!

Romans 3:22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Present truth!)

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. … 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Jerry…notice the emphases on believing?! Abraham (Rom 4) will come into play on that point.

There’s a terrific four point outline in 1Cor 1:30 that demonstrates the contrast between Moses/Israel/law and Christ:

1 Cor. 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Here it is broken down in outline form…

1 Cor. 1:30
1. But of him,…of God
2. are ye in Christ Jesus
3. who…is made unto us:

A. wisdom – As in a crossword puzzle, the death burial and resurrection was hid in the Law of Moses, and in the Psalms, and in the prophets (as was hid to the 12 Apostles also; Lk 18:34; 24:44-46); 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

B. and righteousness – As the law was to Israel for righteousness and forgiveness of sin, so… Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

C. and sanctification – As Israel was baptized (consecrated/sanctified; 1Cor 10:1-2) unto Moses by the LORD (EX 14:21-31), so we are baptized (consecrated/sanctified) by the Spirit into Christ (1Cor 12:13).

D. and redemption – As the LORD redeemed Israel (Ex 6:6; 15:13) with an outstretched arm after the sacrificing the firstborn of Egypt (Ex 13:15), so we’ve been redeemed by Christ’s death and shed blood to deliver us from this present evil world (Gal 1:4; Tit 2:14; 1Pet 1:18-19).

Finally…my goal; next post will deal with Abraham and David (Rom 4) in proper context of Rom 3:29-30.

Romans 3:29-30 (KJV) 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

I’m sure I’ll start off with an introduction to how vitally important it is in making and understanding this distinction between justification of Jew and Gentile by God. Not making this distinction is the foundation of many denominations and so many other controversial and divisive issues are resolved when such distinction is made.

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15

Stvvv1611 - I did not realize how the new versions perverted that phrase, "faith of Christ" in so many places. What robbery! The first time I even took note of that phrase brought me to tears realizing that it is not MY faith but the faith of my LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ that I must live by. Gal. 2:20b "And the life that I now live in the flesh I live BY the faith OF the Son of God."

The day that hit home, I did a quick scan of the other "versions" to see how they had tried to ruin it. It was the very part that spoke to me the most (by the faith OF the Son of God) that they had changed. I am learing more and more that these specific changes are not by chance or mistake but by a very calculating enemy of God's holy Word.

I would like to hear some discussion on the topic of the verses that you quoted in which it talks about the faith OF Jesus. Am I reading it wrong or are we to believe that we are to rely on Christ's faith and not our own. Sometimes my faith is so weak. I hope I am reading this right and that I AM to rely on His faith. Comments please!

[Biblestudent]

In our dialect (Hiligaynon), "of" and "in" are both translated sa. Thank God for the Final Authority in English! Keep it coming, Stvvv1611.

[pbiwolski]

Last summer I found myself in an uncomfortable and unprofitable situation.

I was going door to door soulwinning in our community with the "new guy" when he turned out to be Jerry (well, that wasn't his name, but it was his stripe). His theory of Abraham and salvation,etc. was being presented to a lost soul. He preached that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness...then suggested that anyone (Buddist, Muslim, anybody) who will wholly believe in God for salvation (Abraham his example) will be saved. His words were "even if they have never heard the name of Jesus."

Aaaaahhh!!! What could I do? I wanted to kick him, smack his mouth with my Bible, anything to shut him up. I tried to discreetly interject and shift the approach while "saving face" to the sinner, but the "new guy" was too focused. I continued praying...and eventually the door was shut. The next few minutes brought sharp contention and we had to drop it for the spirit was getting bad.

This nightmare was the result of the teaching being refuted in this thread. It's a shame, but it being taught all over the place.
MY NOTE: The OT saints were looking for the bloody Redeemer in Isaiah 63, not the bloody Redeemer in Isaiah 53. AMEN!