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Old 03-25-2009, 09:52 AM
Mind and Body Mind and Body is offline
 
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Default James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes?

Can Salvation by Faith Alone, a Protestant principle, be reconciled with the second chapter of James' Epistle? he claims that faith without works is dead.
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Old 03-25-2009, 11:07 AM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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Can Salvation by Faith Alone, a Protestant principle, be reconciled with the second chapter of James' Epistle? he claims that faith without works is dead.
Of course it can when you take the very first verse of James and WHO it is written to.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

By the way Salvation by Grace through Faith alone is not a protestant principle, it is a BIBLICAL principle.

If you are here to push works based salvation through 1 verse in James, I think you are in the wrong place.
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Old 03-25-2009, 01:49 PM
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A lot of people who read James, misunderstand his attitude toward works. Martin Luther called it a book of Straw and Hay, and said it did not belong in the Bible.

James was writing to a Hebrew audience, who would have understood his term of works, better than Paul’s term of fruits. But in all actuality it was the same. When James sited Abraham’s obedience to Gods request, he pointed out Abraham justified his faith through obedience. Which was a work of the spirit in Abraham's life, he was convinced God would raise Isaac up from the ashes of the fire, if necessary. This cannot be viewed as anything, but one of the fruits of the Spirit “Faith”.

So James stated where is your faith without works (Fruit). I will show you my faith by my works (fruits). So a man who says he has faith, but has no fruit (works) produced by that kind of faith, it is a dead faith.

We are a new creation in Christ, not to do good works, but to walk in them.
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Old 03-25-2009, 02:21 PM
Mind and Body Mind and Body is offline
 
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Calm down, potw. No-one is saying that salvation is of works; I'm just talking about the implications of James 2 on faith-alone salvation. It is more a Bible-study issue than a doctrinal issue.
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Old 03-25-2009, 03:34 PM
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Fredoheaven Fredoheaven is offline
 
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Calm down, potw. No-one is saying that salvation is of works; I'm just talking about the implications of James 2 on faith-alone salvation. It is more a Bible-study issue than a doctrinal issue.
Somehow POTW made a good point too. You should have put your thread in the Bible Study section not in this thread. For me, this implies that all those saved by faith alone must show their works to others especially to unblievers. A truly saved must walk his talk. Truly we are saved by faith as in Ephesians 2:8-9 but we are also created as his "workmanship" Ephesians 2:10.

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Old 03-25-2009, 06:09 PM
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Somehow POTW made a good point too. You should have put your thread in the Bible Study section not in this thread. For me, this implies that all those saved by faith alone must show their works to others especially to unblievers. A truly saved must walk his talk. Truly we are saved by faith as in Ephesians 2:8-9 but we are also created as his "workmanship" Ephesians 2:10.

Jude 25
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This forum is one of the nicest and most polite Christian forums I ever been in but many of us have deep differences and I notice we can strike a spark or two. We are a KJO group and being a veteran of several of those many times people merely strike sparks for the Sheol of it.

Fred, I think we need to welcome Mind & Body to eternal life in Christ Jesus and to the forum, and cut him(or her) a little break. I think MAB asks a valid question, and it's far from mere "bible study", I think MAB brings up a DOCTRINAL question, I think it should be answered. So pardon me for respectfully disagreeing with you. This deals with the doctrine of salvation by grace. I think we should help this person understand law versus grace, grace versus works, and how ALL of the books of the Bible, EVERY WORD harmonizes and does not contradict.

Anyone want to show MAB how to rightly divided the Scriptures, or shall I do it?

Grace and peace to all

Tony
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Old 03-25-2009, 06:24 PM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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Calm down, potw. No-one is saying that salvation is of works; I'm just talking about the implications of James 2 on faith-alone salvation. It is more a Bible-study issue than a doctrinal issue.
I was perfectly calm in my answer. If it was meant to be a bible study issue you should have posted in the Bible study section and perhaps outlined your own understanding of your own question, so we the reader would know from what angle you were approaching the subject from

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven

James is simply saying that if a person is genuinely saved by Grace through faith then there should be fruit from their good works to show for it, but NOT necessary for salvation

James 2:21, Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

Look to Genesis 15:6

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
The above verse is a different event from Gen 22:8-10

The Apostle Paul spoke of the root of Abraham's faith, whereas James spoke of the fruit of His faith

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
No mention of works
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Works after salvation (gen 15:6)

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Genesis 15:6 we see Abraham believing (salvation), and Genesis 22:-10 Is the fruit of that belief mentioned by James 2:21

Last edited by peopleoftheway; 03-25-2009 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 03-25-2009, 07:09 PM
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I'll probably be sorry I jumped in on this one. I have read James chapter 2 for years and tried to reconcile it with Ephesians 2:8-9.

Now, I don't know if I can explain how I understand this in a way others might understand, but I'll give it a try.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Notice the word "body". There is no such thing as a body without life first existing. For a body to exist, life must have existed at least for a moment. Even in this physical, natural world, for a body to exist, it had to be alive for a time. Now, we all know our physical bodies can die. But the life we receive from Christ can never die.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

So, James 2:26 cannot be talking about salvation. Once you place your faith in Christ, Jesus gives us eternal life and we shall never perish.

And I do not believe James chapter 2 is speaking of salvation whatsoever. I think the key phrase is "what doth it profit?" in verses 14 and 16.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

So, what I believe James is emphasizing here is that if a man who has faith, fails to do good works, then he is USELESS.

Or as we say down south (I am a Southerner) GOOD-FOR-NOTHING.

Now, there are lots of folks who are good-for-nothing. That doesn't mean they are dead, but they really aren't profitable to themselves or anybody else. So, in that sense they are as good as dead.

So, that's my take on this chapter. I'm sure some might disagree, better men than me have been disagreeing on this chapter for centuries.
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Old 03-25-2009, 07:25 PM
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Can Salvation by Faith Alone, a Protestant principle, be reconciled with the second chapter of James' Epistle? he claims that faith without works is dead.
only if you dispensationally divide the scriptures. otherwise you end up confusing all scriptures by make the church Israel, church age the Tribulation of Revelation.

Winman,

That is a very good explanation. if someone is in the body of Christ and yet the Spirit is not there obviously they are outside the will of God possibly grieved the Holy Spirit and there would be no works, a Christians living like that might as well be dead. but if they are alive to God through Christ and the Spirit is not grieved good works will follow. if they are not in the body they have not the spirit therefore they are just unsaved religious men.

Last edited by chette777; 03-25-2009 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 03-25-2009, 08:17 PM
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I'll probably be sorry I jumped in on this one. I have read James chapter 2 for years and tried to reconcile it with Ephesians 2:8-9.

Now, I don't know if I can explain how I understand this in a way others might understand, but I'll give it a try.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Notice the word "body". There is no such thing as a body without life first existing. For a body to exist, life must have existed at least for a moment. Even in this physical, natural world, for a body to exist, it had to be alive for a time. Now, we all know our physical bodies can die. But the life we receive from Christ can never die.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

So, James 2:26 cannot be talking about salvation. Once you place your faith in Christ, Jesus gives us eternal life and we shall never perish.

And I do not believe James chapter 2 is speaking of salvation whatsoever. I think the key phrase is "what doth it profit?" in verses 14 and 16.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

So, what I believe James is emphasizing here is that if a man who has faith, fails to do good works, then he is USELESS.

Or as we say down south (I am a Southerner) GOOD-FOR-NOTHING.

Now, there are lots of folks who are good-for-nothing. That doesn't mean they are dead, but they really aren't profitable to themselves or anybody else. So, in that sense they are as good as dead.

So, that's my take on this chapter. I'm sure some might disagree, better men than me have been disagreeing on this chapter for centuries.
Win, I agree with you in the sense yes, we are new creatures and have the Spirit of Christ and we are created unto good works. No one here who claims kinship with Jesus Christ would abhorr a good work out of a new perspective and appreciation of what the Scriptures call so great a salvation, but brother, trying to reconcile James to Paul is like trying to reconcile Leviticus to Paul. James is TIMES PAST and due to the double prophecy nature of the Scriptures, also to the Messianic Church in the Tribulation in AGES TO COME, because Peter, James, and John preached the Messianic gospel that was rejected at the end of Acts 7 and then Paul was called. James writes to the scattered Messianic church of Acts 8:1. Peter writes in I Peter to the believers he preached to in Acts 2.

Israel fell and we, Gentiles, and Jews equal with us in the Body(there is now NO difference), were grafted into this Body, BUT NOW we provoke Israel to jealousy because through their fall, we received salvation. James is as perfectly at harmony with Paul as the first five books of Moses. Written FOR US, but not TO us.

Brother, James is TRIBULATION doctrine when faith AND works will be required.

Grace and peace to you.

Tony
 

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