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  #61  
Old 02-27-2009, 05:37 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Quote:
In your post you use quite a few verses that contain the word "believe", and at the end of your post you have the phrase "JUST believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" Can you explain the meaning of 1 Cor 15:2,"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have BELIEVED IN VAIN"?
The answer to your question is found in the rest of the chapter.

And what is the subject of the chapter? Not just that Christ died for our sins and was buried, but also that he rose again the third day.

1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Then...

1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

So, what they were to hold firmly to was that not only did Jesus die for our sins and was buried, but that He also rose from dead.

1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.


1 Cor 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #62  
Old 02-27-2009, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: "CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
"The answer to your question is found in the rest of the chapter.

And what is the subject of the chapter? Not just that Christ died for our sins and was buried, but also that he rose again the third day.
"

1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

"Then..."

1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

"So, what they were to hold firmly to was that not only did Jesus die for our sins and was buried, but that He also rose from dead."

1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Cor 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Aloha brother Winman,

I appreciate your Post #61, and I believe that you have a real good Scriptural point. The context of 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 is obviously "The Resurrection" - especially the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Contextually the statement "you have believed in vain" would apply to the fact that some of the Corinthians hadn't accepted ALL of the Gospel, i.e. the Resurrection - hence they would "have believed in vain."

I believe your explanation is far more succinct and to the point, than my Post #52. Although I believe that what I said would cover your very accurate explanation, I should have pointed out the contextual application before giving a broader application.

I said:
Quote:
"I believe that when a person has “BELIEVED IN VAIN”, that they have “believed” some things ABOUT Jesus Christ, but they haven’t “BELIEVEDIN Him, or ON Him, or RECEIVED him. I will illustrate my belief with the following examples:"
I am going to "modify" my lesson in the future and incorporate your comments in it. Again, thanks so much - that was an excellent point that I missed.
  #63  
Old 02-27-2009, 06:42 PM
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These men who Identify them selves as Calvinist will say their doctrine is Biblical will claim this verse, 2Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. In the end make Paul teaching a TULIP.

though Mac Arthur, Scolfield and the rest are men who may have been faithful to their doctrine, they may have been good and godly men. but that does not mean they are correct in the investment of the TULIP.
  #64  
Old 03-01-2009, 02:29 PM
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George, it seems that PeterAV probably has you confused with Steven Anderson (same surname), who made a soulwinning demo tape.

It also seems that PeterAV is probably not a calvinist at all from what I have read of him before, but associates eternal security with calvinism, and loss of salvation with arminianism. If confronted with all 5 points, he would probably claim to be a 1 point calvinist. Maybe not though..
  #65  
Old 03-01-2009, 05:23 PM
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The largest problem I've noticed is the tendency of the uninformed to equate "Perserverance of the Saints" with Eternal Security - Nothing could be farther from the truth! The final doctrine of the Calvinists' whithered flower is nothing more than staying in God's good graces through good works, or that anyone who is part of the mythical "Elect" might lose their salvation, but at the time that they die they will all be right with God and "saved."

Anyone who knows anything about their Bible knows that a Christian is sealed, separated, Spiritually circumcised and sanctified at the moment of salvation, and he would have to be "unborn" in order to lose his state with God. Eternal Security, in contrast to Calvinism's "P" doctrine, is that a Saved person CANNOT lose his salvation in any way after being sanctified.

Calvinism: can lose salvation but will inevitably regain it before death/rapture

Bible: cannot lose salvation in any way for any reason whatsoever
  #66  
Old 03-01-2009, 07:31 PM
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  #67  
Old 03-02-2009, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: "CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"

Aloha all,


I want to apologize for the delay in this Post, but I have been somewhat "distracted" by other issues, both here on the Forum, and elsewhere. The following Post is my fifth Post on Calvinism and covers the Fourth Tenet (premise) of Calvinistic doctrine - "Irresistible Grace".

T.U.L.I.P.{the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

I = “Irresistible Grace”

Calvinists state:

Quote:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.”
Once again we are presented with another Calvinist doctrine which is established with the aid of another additional word that cannot be found in the Holy Bible, i.e. “Irresistible”. In the course of studying the five (5) major tenets (premises) of Calvinism, it has become perfectly clear that Calvinists enlist “catch words” that are foreign to the Holy Scriptures, (i.e. “Total;Depravity”; “Unconditional”; “Irresistible; “External”; “Internal) “catch words” that are cleverly used to influence an inquirer, in order to establish their doctrines. Shouldn’t the use of these extra-Biblical words (by Calvinists) be considered ADDING to the Holy words of God? If not – what should it be called?

It should also be noted that the Calvinists that I have quoted from the Calvinist Corner are using some other translation (?), other than the King James Bible – their quote:
Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy";

Whereas the Holy Bible says: Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Now, almost all Christians know (or at least they should know) that God hasmercy”. Mercy is one of the five main “Moral Attributes” of God. However, according to the King James Bible, in Romans 9:16 it is “God that sheweth mercy”. The verse is not stating the obvious fact that God POSSESSES the Moral Attribute, i.e. Mercy - WHO doesn’t know that? The verse is talking about God DEMONSTRATING that Mercy! {Just another “minordifference - amongst thousands of the so-called “minordifferences between the Holy Bible and another imitation bible.}

I’m not claiming that all Calvinists have embraced the corrupt modern translations, I know better than that. But it is interesting how, many Calvinists won’t hesitate to ADD words foreign to the Bible in order to establish their doctrines; or they will have no shame in substituting words such as “SICK” for “WICKED”, or “SLAVE” for “SERVANT”; or “HAS” for “SHEWETH”; etc.; etc.; ad infinitum; to enforce their preconceived notions.

I believe that Almighty God is “SOVEREIGN” {All Powerful}. I believe that God can do whatever He “WILLS”. After all, the God of the Bible is the ONE TRUE GOD; the ETERNAL “I AM” {Self Existing [without beginning or end of existence] Immortal-Perpetual-Unchangeable}. I firmly believe in God’s substantive attributes: I believe in GOD’S OMNISCIENCE {All-Knowing - All-Seeing}; I believe in GOD’S OMNIPRESENCE {Present Everywhere - in all places at the same time}; and I believe in GOD’S OMNIPOTENCE {All Powerful – Unlimited Power}.

I also believe that God WILL NOT (Cannot) do anything that is CONTRARY to His Moral Character. And since Almighty God is HOLY, JUST, TRUE, LOVING, and MERCIFUL; He Will Not (CANNOT) do anything that goes against His basic MORAL “FACULTIES”. For example God CANNOT LIE:

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I do not question God’s Sovereignty, however, it is abundantly clear from Scripture that there are some things that God either CANNOT do, or WILL NOT do. And recognizing this fact does not, in any way, detract from Almighty God’s Sovereignty. Instead, it establishes all of God’s “Attributes” {Substantive & Moral} – especially His HOLINESS”.

There are many verses in the Holy Scriptures that clearly demonstrate men resisting God or God’s Will. I can not cite them all, but I will cite many of the major ones.

Please read all of Psalm 78. The whole Psalm is a “Parable” of God continually reaching out to His people (Israel) and their continual unbelief, disobedience, and rejection of His will for them. If there is such a thing as IrresistibleGrace - whatever happened with His CHOSEN people?

The following sample verses from Psalm 78 “illustrate” the point:

Psalms 78:40 How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Ps 78:32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.

Psalms 78:37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.
Psalms 78:56 Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:
57 But turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.

What is the “problem” with God’s “CHOSEN” people (Israel)? Is it because they are not part of the “Elect”? If so, WHY doesn’t God say so, instead of inspiring David to state:

Psalm 78:22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:

Did you get that? There’s BELIEF AGAIN! And herein lays the “PROBLEM”. How many times does God have to repeat something before it “takes”? God’s people (Jews & Christians) have always had a “problem” with BELIEVING. As a matter of fact, the “stumbling block” for ALL people (Jews & Gentiles alike) has always been BELIEF – either in God’s word (written & oral) and in the “WORD” {INCARNATE}! [Matthew 21;42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8; Romans 9:32-33]

Psalm 78 clearly demonstrates God’s people (Israel) continually thwarting God’s will for them. But how about testimony from the New Testament? What does it have to say about this issue? [Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.]

Please read Chapter 7 of the book of Acts. In Acts 7:1-60 Stephen gives a very short “synopsis” of the history of the Jewish (Hebrew) people; from the call of Abraham (the first Hebrew) up to and including the life/death/burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

We have David’s testimony that God’s people (Israel) “LIMITED THE Holy One of Israel”. We have Stephen’s testimony that God’s people, (Israel) in the past and up to Stephen’s time, “do always RESIST the Holy Ghost”! What about the Lord Jesus Christ’s testimony concerning this issue? What does the Lord have to say?

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

What Did the Lord Jesus Christ say? HOW OFTEN WOULD I . . . . AND YE WOULD NOT!

How much more do Bible believers “need” to convince them that God’s people can LIMIT God; RESIST the Holy Ghost; and DEFY God’s Will for them? Hmmm? So then, with the crystal clear and irrefutable testimony of the written word of God, and the Holy Son of God - what is Calvinism doing teaching IRRESISTIBLEGRACE? Is God sovereign? Of course He is! But, can God’s people RESIST and LIMIT God? According to the Holy Scriptures – they sure can.

I don’t recommend it, but I know, from personal experience, that a good portion of my life (since I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour) has been spent resisting God’s will for me. I’m not proud of it, but that’s the plain, unvarnished truth! I thank God for His love, His mercy, and His longsuffering patience. It would be the height of hypocrisy for me to claim that everything that I have done, since I got saved, is according to God’s will – I know better!

If Israel (Jews/Hebrews – lost or saved) could LIMIT God [Psalm 78:41]; RESIST God [Acts 7:51]; and RESIST God’s will [Matthew 23:37 & Luke 13:34]; and I, as a born again child of God, can RESIST God’s will, WHY would someone think that a lost person (man or woman) CAN’T RESIST God’s Will – when it comes to salvation?

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The above verse is perfectly clear. GOD “WILL have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” Someone will have to twist the Scripture, and turn it on its head in order to make it say something other than what it just said. Oh, I know: “ALL MEN” doesn’t reallymeanALL MEN (as in “ALL”), IT REALLY MEANS –“just the elect” . . . . . . But we’ve heard that “Song” before (and it’s getting pretty OLD!)

IF God “will have all men to be saved” – then WHAT is the problem? The “problem” is NOT that some are elected into salvation, others are not. The “problem” is: “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” [John 5:40]; the “problem” is a REFUSAL to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ [Luke 22:67; John 4:48; 6:64; 8:24; 16:7-11; 2Corinthians 4:3-4; 20:25] so that they can come unto Him that they “might have life”.. The clear testimony of the Scripture is that there are “some” who “will not come to me, that ye might have life”. WHAT happened to When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. {i.e. IRRESISTIBLEGRACE?}

Let’s examine John 5:40 in context and see if we can get some “light” on the matter:

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

WHY would the Lord Jesus Christ say: “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” [John 5:40] - IF the doctrine of “IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE were true? Wouldn’t He have said: “And (because ye are not among the elect) ye will not come to me, that ye might have life”? WHY does the Lord introduce the word “BELIEVE” 5 times in 4 verses (verses 44-47) in the context, and never mention “elect”, “elected”, or “election” ONCE?

What about Titus 2:11:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Since we all know that the preceding verse is true [Romans 3:4], WHY don’t ALL MEN get saved - IF “IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE is also true? Please read the verse carefully over again. The only way you can annul the clear teaching of the verse is if you CHANGEALL MEN to something other than ALL MENlike ALL THE ELECT; or EVERY KIND OF MAN; etc; etc; I believe the verse (WHERE it stands & HOW it stands). I don’t profess to understand all of its implications – I just accept it without any reservations or changes.

Let’s examine Luke 8:11-12 in regards to this issue:

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

What about Luke 8:12: “lest they should believe and be saved”? IF IRRESISTIBLEGRACE is true, WHAT is Satan doing taking away the word out of someone’s heart “lest they believe”? IF they are the elect, “they cannot resist” anyway, so why does the devil (who knows the Scriptures far better than John Calvin - or any of his followers) even bother, since the elect cannotresist God’s Grace? It’s very simple really: Satan KNOWS that the “Key” to SALVATION is when a person “BELIEVES” (in his heart) on the Lord Jesus Christ - that they are SAVED for eternity, and so he does every thing in his power to prevent them from “BELIEVING”! {IF “IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE were true – he wouldn’t waste 5 minutes trying to prevent someone from “believing”, since, according to Calvinism, they can’t “resist” the Gospel of the Grace of God anyway!}

It’s impossible (for me) to list even half of the verses in the Holy Bible where people (lost and saved) have resisted God or God’s will. One of the main themes of the Bible is man’s continual defiance, disobedience and rebellion against God and His Holy word. The idea that God “forces” people (against their will) to BELIEVE in Him is absurd! Under the Law the Jews were obligated to OBEY Him (although He didn’t force them to BELIEVE in Him.). Under GRACE, the Lord is seeking those people, who WILLINGLY BELIEVE IN Him; who WILLINGLY come to Him; who WILLINGLY worship Him; and who WILLINGLY obey Him [John 4:23-24].

Does the Scriptural requirement of BELIEF in order to RECEIVE God’s salvation negate those verses where it says: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” [John 6:44] Of course not! But those verses must be understood in the context of: John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. WHO does the Father draw? Why those who “come” to Him BY THE Lord Jesus Christ. And HOW is this accomplished? Why, by believingon the Lord Jesus Christ” [Acts 16:31]. You cannot separate or divorce Scripture from Scripture or take verses out of context in order to establish a “pet” doctrine to reinforce your “belief system”.

Under GRACE there is NO Fear, NO Intimidation, NO Coercion, or “Force”! If God wanted men and women to be like robots, He would have made Himself some more Angels.

In 1Corinthians 9:2 Paul is “made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
[1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.] IFIRRESISTIBLE” GRACE is true, why should Paul have bothered, since the elect can’t “resist” God’s call, and the rest are “plumb out of luck”? Can you see how preposterous this “doctrine” is?

What about the following verses:

Proverbs 1:22How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

In the preceding verses we have God’s CALL, and people REFUSING that CALL; we have “no man” regarding, and wanting NONE of God’s reproof; there are people in these verses, who “have at set at nought all my (God’s) counsel”; you have people who “hated knowledge”, and who “despised all my (God’s) reproof”; the Scriptures clearly state that those people “did not choose the fear of the Lord” and “they would none of my counsel.

What happened to “IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE? What is going on? WHY do Christians accept and “embrace” such a doctrine that is so contrary to the Scriptural record?

Here a few (a very few) more verses demonstrating that people, from Adam up to our present time, have always “resisted” God and His Holy word.

Jeremiah 35:15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

Deuteronomy 1:26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

Deuteronomy 1:43 So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill.

Deuteronomy 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Jeremiah 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

Calvinists state:
God offers to all people the gospel message.

I challenge anyone to find the term “the gospel message” in the Holy Bible. God is very careful not to “combine” the two words – “gospel” & “message” together in His Holy word so that no one makes the mistake of thinking God’s WORDS are just a “message”. The “Gospel” of the Grace of God uses very specific words – NOT the “message” that is being preached on radio & TV throughout the USA.

“This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted.This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.”

Calvinists state:

“Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"
[Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.]

All genuine Bible believers believe the preceding verse, so where’s the “external” or “internal call”? What in the world does this have to do with IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE?

Calvinists state:
Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are . . . . . Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual;[Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.]

Let’s get this straight – According to these Calvinists, Philippians 2:12 says: “God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual;! Are these people serious? Can they not READ? Philippians 2:12 says NOTHING OF THE KIND! I will remind all Calvinists - The Lord Jesus Christ said IT IS FINISHED!” [John 19:30] God is NOTworking salvation in the individual” – He’s working in Christians “both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” We’re already saved for all eternity; The Lord Jesus Christ FINISHED the work of salvation on the cross; there’s NOTHING left to do in regards to salvation (on God’s part or ours) period! The only thing left, is for God to work in us, so that we might seek His will and do “His good pleasure.”

Calvinists state:
Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are . . . . . John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God;

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

We are commanded to “rightly divide the word of truth” - Question: Do you see the wordFAITH” in either verse? Someone is CHANGING the words of God to establish their own doctrine! The word “FAITH” is NOT the same as the word “BELIEVE”!

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Let’s get the chronology of salvation straight, shall we:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

We BELIEVE FIRST, and then we RECEIVE FAITH! Calvinism confuses the 2 words – they are NOT THE SAME! We are NOT “justified” by our BELIEF – we are justified “by the faith of Jesus Christ”. The following links to Posts on the Forum goes into far more depth on the difference between these two words:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=117

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=261
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=267
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The Scriptures cited, plainly say that the “work of God” is to get people (all men) to “believe on Him whom He hath sent” – the word “faith” is NOT in either verse. The way that God goes about this “work” is through His written Holy word; the Holy Spirit (convincing & convicting); and the preaching (by men) of the “Gospel” (NOT some “message”).

Calvinists state:
Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are . . . . . Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe;

Acts 13:46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Question: Does this one verse [Acts 13:48] “negate” all of the verses on this matter cited previously? Are there contradictions in the Holy Bible? I trow not! Does verse 48 say “God appoints people to believe;”? I don’t think so! So WHAT does it say? It says: “as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” It DOES NOT SAY: “God appoints people to believe”! Instead of CHANGING God’s words or twisting them to make them say what we want them to say - Let’s try to “rightly divide” the verse:

Question: WHO is “ordained”? Answer: THOSE whom God “foreknew”. Question: WHO did God “foreknow”? Answer: THOSE whom God did “predestinate”. Question: WHO did God “predestinate”? Answer: THOSE whom He “called”. Question: WHO did God “call”? Answer: THOSE whom He “justified”. Question: WHO did God “JUSTIFY”? Answer: THOSE who received “faith”. Question: WHO received “faith”? Answer: THOSE who “BELIEVEDON THE Lord Jesus Christ! {That wasn’t so hard – was it?}

Quote:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Calvinists state:
Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are . . . . . and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

WHAT Romans 9:16;Philippians 2:12-13;John 6:28;-29Acts 13:48; and John 1:12-13 have to do with IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE is beyond me. Those verses certainly don’t PROVE the Calvinistic doctrine – NOT by a long shot! And it is even more obvious that the verses have NOTHING to do with a so-calledEXTERNAL” CALL or an “INTERNAL” CALL either.

If I had the time (and the space) I could go on (and on, and on) – but why bother? At some point in each of these studies it becomes tedious dealing with the ADDING, SUBTRACTING, and CHANGING OF God’s Holy words, so I’ll close for now, perhaps (some day) I may expand on this critique, and then again I may not.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When I first read the Bible in 1958 the Holy Spirit convinced me that this truly was the word of God. Through the testimony of the Scriptures I “saw” the Lord Jesus Christ (through spiritual eyes only) and I BELIEVED on Him. God never coerced or forced me to BELIEVE – the Holy Spirit called me through the written word, and convinced me of the truth of the Gospel, and it was then – AFTER I BELIEVED, that I received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour (everlasting life) and became a son of God. God didn’t BELIEVE for me, and neither did he ever “force me to BELIEVE. I WILLINGLY BELIEVED from my heart. A doctrine that teaches that God “believes” for us, or “makes” (forces) us to BELIEVE (i.e. IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE), is contrary to the Holy Scriptures, and should be avoided at all costs.

The "Simplicity that is in Christ" is far less complicated than Calvinism would have you believe.

John
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Last edited by George; 03-02-2009 at 09:34 PM.
  #68  
Old 03-03-2009, 02:47 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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another Gem in your crown of Study George.

Blessings for your blessing
  #69  
Old 03-03-2009, 07:00 PM
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Gord Gord is offline
 
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1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone")
3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
4 Solus Christus ("Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

Never having studied anything on the reformation, I was under the impression that the 5 solas were all part of the split. Was this introduced by Calvin or another of the reformers? To me the solas have scriptural grounding.

I was wondering as Calvin took his T.U.L.I.P. 5 points that brother George has so graciously given us his edification on this, showing us the variances and lack of scriptural grounding, so I was googling to try and find the correlation if there is one.

If this is not the right spot for this question Brandon please feel free to move it to a new topic.
  #70  
Old 03-03-2009, 08:14 PM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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whats with all the Latin?

Latin is a key to where the solas come form. Interesting point though
 

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