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  #31  
Old 11-30-2008, 12:23 AM
JMWHALEN JMWHALEN is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkg View Post
Brother, let me ask you a few return questions.

Can you be paritally saved? From my understanding you can either be truly saved(I guess i could have phrased that better) or your not saved. People claim salvation who aren't saved, that is why I put the word truly there. I come from an area where many people say they are saved but walk in the ways of the world. A little prayer gets them into heaven and then their good to go, in their minds at least.

Salvation is black and white in God's eyes I would say. Or is their a gray area of he might be saved?

"Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk.""

If your life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ will you not be working for Him? Will you not be doing his will? If you are saved shouldnt you be growing in your walk, and serving him? Its not easy for everyone, for a lot its a battle, but if you have Christ you will win that battle and their will be a change in you.

Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?), and that fruit comes from a willingness to be moving towards God. If you understand that the Lord God of all creation sent down his only Son to save you from eternal damnation and you did not want to learn more about Him and grow closer, well that person I do not believe understands the gravity of what they escaped from, and what price had to be payed for it.

"that "you can tell?"
What I get from this is that I should question everyones salvation? A believer knowing someone elses salvation is relevant, because how am I suppose to know if I should witness to them or not. I am just wondering if this was the intention behind that comment.

You say I do not understand the gravity of sin, but I do, my very being was sin before Christ, the very best I was capable of was nothing but filthy rags before the Lord.

I believe I clarified my point on the fruit aspect of it being a willingness to move towards the Lord will(I belive) result in having fruit (not a quanity but an existence of it) Some walks are stronger then others but it will exist.

I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them.

But in all honesty, after rereading what I said, I need to not post on no sleep. I wrote that last night after being up all night the previous night due to Black Friday sales. And that could have been much better written. (Got me a laptop)

Im open to any reproaches or instructions because if I am wrong I want to know.

In Love,
-Timothy
___
Timothy,


See http://av1611.com/forums/showthread....0180#post10180
post #3 and #4.


In Christ,

John M. Whalen
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #32  
Old 11-30-2008, 09:45 PM
tkg
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Brother, Ive read your posts 3 times now just to be fair, I just want you to be straightforward on 2 things for me. A: This conversation is actually the first time Ive heard the word "Lordship Salvation" come up. So can you define that for me. Im fairly sure I know what you mean from reading your posts but I just want it laid out simply for me.

B: I still stand by this point, Christ will make you a new creature when you are saved. If you are new, you arent the same. Something has changed, and there is some evidence of that. That evidence is key to understanding if someone is saved or not, and I believe God has that happen to us because 1: We are filled with the righteousness of Jesus Christ so the sin is getting the boot which means things change in your life whether it be friends, or things you possess, or things you do. It just naturally happens from what I have seen, you are a new creature and all things are made new. 2: It was put in place as a way to see if another person is saved so we know to witness to him or not.

Please specifically correct me if Im wrong and dont just point to your previous posts, point to where in them. Just so I dont get lost and know exactly what your going for.

Also, I still am new to the faith, It's been a little over 2 years, and in all honesty I feel like I havent even begun to understand anything, so I want to learn more, as much as possible about The Lord that saved me from eternal damnation and sacrificed Himself for me.

In Love,
-Timothy
  #33  
Old 12-01-2008, 02:19 AM
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Lordship Salvation, to give a simple definition - it puts the evidence of salvation as a prerequisite. In order to be saved, a sinner must repent of sins and forsake them etc, make a committment to serve God, live after Christ etc, and all of this is supposed to happen BEFORE a man gets saved. It's another gospel that is not another. Brother, I don't think you are guilty of it, because expecting holiness from a Christian is not Lordship Salvation, but you cannot demand holiness as a requirement for salvation.
  #34  
Old 12-01-2008, 07:04 AM
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MC1171611 MC1171611 is offline
 
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What most people don't understand is that while the Born Again Christian is a new creature, the old creature is only dead in trespasses and sins: the OLD MAN still remains. As Paul spoke of many times, even he struggled with sin and wickedness in his flesh. It was not a sign of an unregenerate person: it is proof that every Christian has TWO natures, the nature of Adam, or a sinful, wicked nature, and the mind and heart of Christ, which is the New Man.

The only thing that really changes at Salvation is the regeneration of our souls and the Holy Spirit coming to dwell inside of us. Yes, He will lead us into all truth, but we aren't forced into following! A saved person is capable of anything and everything that a lost man is capable of; the difference between us and them is that we have the Holy Spirit of God in us, and we are commanded not to quench the Spirit. If we can quench the spirit, then obviously we are able to sin.

People take the Epistles of John and try to apply them doctrinally to us today; this is fallacy since they are located in the books written to the Tribulation saints, to whom also are written the Gospels (Gospel of the Kingdom, etc.). Most "Lordship Salvation" preachers use Matthew ("endure to the end") and Hebrews through Jude to peach that people who live in sin aren't saved. This simply isn't the case. It is true that many people who don't exhibit a change after salvation truly aren't saved, but I know of people that got truly born again and either backslid or never "got in." They show no fruit, and they'll have absolutely no rewards in Heaven, but they're just as saved as you or I.
  #35  
Old 12-01-2008, 11:36 AM
JMWHALEN JMWHALEN is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkg View Post
Brother, let me ask you a few return questions.

Can you be paritally saved? From my understanding you can either be truly saved(I guess i could have phrased that better) or your not saved. People claim salvation who aren't saved, that is why I put the word truly there. I come from an area where many people say they are saved but walk in the ways of the world. A little prayer gets them into heaven and then their good to go, in their minds at least.

Salvation is black and white in God's eyes I would say. Or is their a gray area of he might be saved?

"Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk.""

If your life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ will you not be working for Him? Will you not be doing his will? If you are saved shouldnt you be growing in your walk, and serving him? Its not easy for everyone, for a lot its a battle, but if you have Christ you will win that battle and their will be a change in you.

Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?), and that fruit comes from a willingness to be moving towards God. If you understand that the Lord God of all creation sent down his only Son to save you from eternal damnation and you did not want to learn more about Him and grow closer, well that person I do not believe understands the gravity of what they escaped from, and what price had to be payed for it.

"that "you can tell?"
What I get from this is that I should question everyones salvation? A believer knowing someone elses salvation is relevant, because how am I suppose to know if I should witness to them or not. I am just wondering if this was the intention behind that comment.

You say I do not understand the gravity of sin, but I do, my very being was sin before Christ, the very best I was capable of was nothing but filthy rags before the Lord.

I believe I clarified my point on the fruit aspect of it being a willingness to move towards the Lord will(I belive) result in having fruit (not a quanity but an existence of it) Some walks are stronger then others but it will exist.

I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them.

But in all honesty, after rereading what I said, I need to not post on no sleep. I wrote that last night after being up all night the previous night due to Black Friday sales. And that could have been much better written. (Got me a laptop)

Im open to any reproaches or instructions because if I am wrong I want to know.

In Love,
-Timothy
________________________
(underline/bold my emphasis)

"I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them."-tkg

My comment: Then why do you continue to make an assessment/judgment as to one's justification, based on their "walk", their "work", their "service", their "change", their "fruit", "closeness"....?, as follows:



“I come from an area where many people say they are saved but walk in the ways of the world….”-tkg

My comment:

I ask again, define how much of a "walk"? This is a rhetorical question. You continue to confuse Sanctification with Justification. You are basing justification on the subjective assessment of one's "walk", vs. the objective work of the Lord Jesus Christ. All Christians "walk in the ways of the world"-it is just a matter degree. Are you justified? Do you always avoid "walking in the ways of the world?" Remember, the objective standard , the "bar", if you will, is the walk of the Saviour, the service of the Saviour, the only person ever to walk this earth that fulfilled this stringent requirement, gave Himself "100%" unreservedly to be used of His Father for His glory,who gave Himself "100%" in His walk, His service, in the sight of men and God the Father, who gave "100%" of His will in submission to the will of God the Father,when He humbled himself and allowed the Father to work in Him and through Him for 33 years on earth of service. You error is that you have the wrong standard, judging your/others "walk", "service".....in comparison with each other, instead of the Lord Jesus Christ as the standard. And the LORD God has declared all of us as "guilty" in "falling short"(Romans 3:19-23) of the standard set forth by this great Saviour of ours, the Lord Jesus Christ. And hence-the cross.

Again, I ask, are you justified? Do you always avoid "walking in the ways of the world?"If you do not, then, again, define how much of "walking in the ways of the world" would nullify your justification? This is your argument, not mine. So, be specific-eternal lifes are at stake.

“If your life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ will you not be working for Him Will you not be doing his will? If you are saved shouldnt you be growing in your walk, and serving him? Its not easy for everyone, for a lot its a battle, but if you have Christ you will win that battle and their will be a change in you.?”-tkg

My comment:

I ask again, define how much "working for him", how much "doing his will", how much "growth in your walk"(sanctification), how much "serving him", how much "change"? This is a rhetorical question. You continue to confuse Sanctification with Justification. You are basing justification on the subjective assessment of one's "walk", vs. the objective work of the Lord Jesus Christ. All Christians "fall short"(Romans 3:19-23) in their "working for him", in their "doing his will", in their "growth in their walk", in their "service", in their "change"- is just a matter degree. Are you justified? Do you always , "work for him", "do his will", "grow", "change"? Per the preceding, the Lord Jesus Christ is the "100% standard by which you must make this assessment of others, and yourself. How do you "measure" up?(again, rhetorical question-you and I and everyone fall short="miss the mark") If you do not, then, again, define how much "growth in your walk"(sanctification), how much "serving him", how much "lack of change",would nullify your justification? This is your argument, not mine. So, be specific-eternal lives are at stake.


“Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?), and that fruit comes from a willingness to be moving towards God. If you understand that the Lord God of all creation sent down his only Son to save you from eternal damnation and you did not want to learn more about Him and grow closer, well that person I do not believe understands the gravity of what they escaped from, and what price had to be payed for it.”-tkg

My comment:

“Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?)...

This is a nonsensical statement, for any "fruit"("their should be fruit","fruitless"), by definition, requires a minimum of at least "one fruit", if you will. Again, how much fruit? Again, per the preceding, you confuse Sanctification(fruit),with Justification, and the wrong standard upon which to make this assessment/judgment, comparing "fruit" of yourself to others, and vica versa, instead of the standard of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"from a willingness to be moving towards God. "

Again, how much "willingness"? Again, per the preceding, you confuse Sanctification(fruit),with Justification, and the wrong standard upon which to make this assessment/judgment, comparing your "willingness" to others, and vica versa, instead of the standard of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ was the only person ever to walk this evil world(Gal. 1:4), that "100%" loved the LORD thy God with all His heart, and with all His soul, and with all His might, and to have to walked "in all his ways", to have walked "ever in his ways"(Deut. 6:5, 10:12. 11:1, 19:9,30:6; Mt. 22:37; Mark 12:30;Luke 10:27) and was "100% willing" to be used by His Father for His Father's glory:

"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." John 4:34

The Lord Jesus Christ's joy was knowing that he was finishing the work His Father had given Him-he delighted in doing His Father's will(Psalms 40:8,Matthew 26:39, Hebrews 10:7), all for the glory of God. It was not just His duty, His obligation- it was His food, His delight, to do the work His Father had given Him-and that work was to glorify His heavenly Father. And He accomplished it with a "100% passing grade." Everyone else-you, me, everyone-falls short(Riomans 3:19-23).




"that "you can tell?" –John W

“What I get from this is that I should question everyones salvation? A believer knowing someone elses salvation is relevant, because how am I suppose to know if I should witness to them or not. I am just wondering if this was the intention behind that comment.” –tkg

My comment: No, my point was reacting to your "argument", your assertion:

"the only way I can tell this is through their fruit."-tkg

Your "argument" is based onyour subjective assessment("the only way I can tell") of someone's Sanctification ("their fruit"), instead of God the Father's acceptance of the objective work of His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, based on your "argument"(not mine), how much "fruit" do we have to see? See again my previous comments within this response/post.



“I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them.”-tkg

My comment:You continue to confuse Sanctification with Justification. On one hand, you state“I never once said that your works justify you before God..", and then, "in the same breath", assess/judge whether one is "justified/saved", "I will know if they are saved or not", by calling for evidence of said justification/salvation by examining , by "see(ing) their faith through their works"-you again confirm your "the only way I can tell this is through their fruit" mindset.

Again, how many "works"?You error is that you have the wrong standard, judging your/others "works" in comparison with each other, instead of the Lord Jesus Christ as the standard. And the LORD God has declared all of us as "guilty" in "falling short"(Romans 3:19-23) of the standard set forth by this great Saviour of ours, the Lord Jesus Christ. And hence-the cross.

Again, I ask, are you justified? Do you always "work"? Define how many "works" are needed to be justified, and what minimum "threshold", "bar", would you have to "fall short", that would nullify your justification? This is your argument, not mine. So, be specific-eternal lifes are at stake.


And hence, the reason for my previous post:
__________________________________________________
Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works)."-tkg

"truly saved" (my reiterating your statement)

Is that similar to "truly pregnant, truly dead, truly alive, truly white, truly black, truly sweet, truly bitter........?

Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk." -John W

"the only way I can tell this is through their fruit."(my reiterating your statement)

How much "fruit?" You do not comprehend the gravity of sin. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being." Tell us how much "fruit" is required. And, while you are at it, if this is your(not my) "argument", tell us that you have met the requirement of "fruit." And what relevance is it, even if your "argument" is correct(and it is not), that "you can tell?" -John W

"..are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can."(my reiterating your statement)

This is sanctification, not justification. -John W

"trying" (my reiterating your statement)

How much "trying"? -John W


"but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer."(my reiterating your statement)


How many works would you say "qualified" that you "showed any movement towards God"? You have the wrong conception of sin. Those poor Corinthians, who are referred to as "saints." The Galatians would love this sermon.

And what distinguishes a "true" believer from a "not true" believer? Tell all of us what a "true believer" is, with specifics.-John W


"repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it. "(my reiterating your statement)

"turn from sin" is sanctification/service/"walk", not justification. The LORD God repented.-John W
______________________________________

And finally:

"...their will be a change in you."-tkg


"As long as an unbeliever can be a strong person and give up something, like whiskey, and women, or whatever it is that bugs and confuses Christians, anything that an unbeliever can do is not Christianity. If you can get that principle in your mind, and think about it, anything that an unbeliever can do is not Christianity. Unbelievers give this up. Unbelievers give that up. Unbelievers don't do that. That's not Christianity. Any unbeliever can do these things. They can give up things. What does it prove when someone gives up something? Not a thing. But when someone believes in Christ, God does many things for that person. And He, God, can take some mangy person and make him a new creature in Christ." -Buddy Dano, Divine Viewpoint Bible Studies

A health club, psychic hotline, dating service, "religion"(Judais, Islam, Hinduism.......) etc. can change lives, can bring about "a change in you",but that does not make it Christian!





In Christ,

John M. Whalen
  #36  
Old 12-01-2008, 11:45 AM
JMWHALEN JMWHALEN is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkg View Post
Brother, Ive read your posts 3 times now just to be fair, I just want you to be straightforward on 2 things for me. A: This conversation is actually the first time Ive heard the word "Lordship Salvation" come up. So can you define that for me. Im fairly sure I know what you mean from reading your posts but I just want it laid out simply for me.

B: I still stand by this point, Christ will make you a new creature when you are saved. If you are new, you arent the same. Something has changed, and there is some evidence of that. That evidence is key to understanding if someone is saved or not, and I believe God has that happen to us because 1: We are filled with the righteousness of Jesus Christ so the sin is getting the boot which means things change in your life whether it be friends, or things you possess, or things you do. It just naturally happens from what I have seen, you are a new creature and all things are made new. 2: It was put in place as a way to see if another person is saved so we know to witness to him or not.

Please specifically correct me if Im wrong and dont just point to your previous posts, point to where in them. Just so I dont get lost and know exactly what your going for.

Also, I still am new to the faith, It's been a little over 2 years, and in all honesty I feel like I havent even begun to understand anything, so I want to learn more, as much as possible about The Lord that saved me from eternal damnation and sacrificed Himself for me.

In Love,
-Timothy
_____--

See my other post/response along the same lines.

".. and there is some evidence of that."-tkg

Again,how much evidence? The question "evidences" not understanding the finality of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the subjective result of justification=your sanctification/your walk/your service, but not the basis of your justification. You show/demonstrate/display your "evidence" because you are a son, not to become a son. Again, "some evidence" focuses on you, and your comparison of your walk in service to others=wrong standard", and not the objective, "100%" standard of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His work at Calvary, and resurrection(1 Cor 15:1-4).


In Christ,

John M. Whalen
  #37  
Old 12-01-2008, 11:55 AM
tkg
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Brother John, you raise interesting points and I am taking time to reflect on them now. But first let me thank you for your timely response on this, I really do appreciate you taking time to explain the stance you have on all of this.

One other quick question I have is still how should I know who to witness too. I guess Im still trying to grasp the difference between justification/santification/sonship and all the other stuff you have stated. Youve thrown a lot of information at me at a fast speed so I am just trying to digest it all at the moment.

Edit: I guess Im just struggling on a practicality standpoint but again, Im still meditating on this.

But thank you again.

In love
-Timothy
  #38  
Old 12-01-2008, 12:04 PM
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Well, you should witness to everyone. You don't judge according to the outward appearance.
  #39  
Old 12-01-2008, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
Well, you should witness to everyone. You don't judge according to the outward appearance.
I didnt mean street witnessing persay, Im meaning more in a church situation. Where as not everyone who goes to a church is saved. So its more of someone you know, than a complete stranger.
  #40  
Old 12-01-2008, 12:26 PM
JMWHALEN JMWHALEN is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkg View Post
Brother John, you raise interesting points and I am taking time to reflect on them now. But first let me thank you for your timely response on this, I really do appreciate you taking time to explain the stance you have on all of this.

One other quick question I have is still how should I know who to witness too. I guess Im still trying to grasp the difference between justification/santification/sonship and all the other stuff you have stated. Youve thrown a lot of information at me at a fast speed so I am just trying to digest it all at the moment.

Edit: I guess Im just struggling on a practicality standpoint but again, Im still meditating on this.

But thank you again.

In love
-Timothy
Your welcome. Consider the "good news", the gospel of Christ as outlined in 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

1. News, by definition, is that which has already happened.
2. If there is "good news", then there has to be some "bad news. And thus, Romans chapter 3(and others!)= we all fall short of our Holy(the # one attribute of the LORD God in the Holy Bible)LORD God's righteous standards=bad news for sinners!
3. And hence, the need for a Saviour(saved=to be delivered from a danger), to be delivered from a danger,"the wages of sin...death", and the " bad news"!!!!!!

4. The good news!!!!!!The Lord Jesus Christ, and what He did!!!!!!


Is that not good news!

In christ,

John M. Whalen
 

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