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  #221  
Old 04-12-2008, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
George, there is no question that God as a person and heaven as a place are different words. That does not mean that the place (or condition) called "Kingdom of Heaven" is different from "Kingdom of God". The key word is "Kingdom". The prepositional phrases "of God" and "of Heaven" set up a relation. "Of God" tells Whose kingdom it is, and "of Heaven" tells the location or condition. IMPORTANT DISTINCTION: The location is where God chooses to establish it, not necessarily what is commonly called "heaven" today.

George, I showed some parallel passages for comparison. It is clearly evident that Jesus is not speaking of two different "kingdoms" with nearly identical wording, and spoken at the same point in time.
What you say is possibly true, but on the other hand it is far more highly probable, that there are two (2) kingdoms present at the same time: #1 the "kingdom of heaven" (small h), which is an earthly kingdom which Adam "lost" and Satan gained by default (the god of this world and all of its "kingdoms" - Matthew 4:8-9). and #2 the kingdom of God that is not yet of this world.

Read the so-called "sermon" (teaching)on the mount [Matthew Chapters 5, 6, &7] - the Lord is referring to an earthly, physical, fleshly kingdom that one could see, hear, touch, and feel ( A "kingdom" which some people were already in here on earth.)
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Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

That is certainly NOT true about the kingdom of God!

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

How was it possible for the "scribes" and "Pharisees" to "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men"? If it is the "same" as the Kingdom of God (which is not here? - yet.)

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom located in Heaven (big H) and within those of us who are born into it (saved by the Saviour). It was never said that one had to be "born again" to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I know that this is "an hard saying", but it is far more likely that once Adam lost the "rights" to the kingdom of heaven that the rights to that "kingdom" passed on to Satan (the victor - at that time). And that the only "kingdom" present on this earth from the fall of Adam until the Lord Jesus Christ showed up on the scene was the "kingdom of heaven" - the Lord Jesus Christ showed up not only contesting Satan for the "right" to rule the "kingdom heaven", but bringing with Him the kingdom of God.

Now, this is not a "doctrine" that I base "fellowship" on, but I believe that it is true and it is the result of "rightly dividing the word of truth."

Again, there is a whole lot more that I could present here, but at this point , although I don't hold the record for the most posts, I probably hold the record for the longest.
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  #222  
Old 04-12-2008, 09:30 PM
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C'mon, Brother! "it is far more highly probable, that there are two (2) kingdoms present at the same time" ?? This is really stretching it!

Please read the verses again that I quoted in post #210. How is it possible to read these verses plainly and straightforward and not see that Jesus is speaking of the same thing?

By the way, where in the Scriptures does God acknowledge that satan rules of an earthly kingdom? In Matthew 4, satan claims that the kingdoms are his to give. Remember he is the father of lies; he is the deceiver. (If he told me that the sky was blue, I would look outside to see for myself! )
He is the god of this world, that is, he is the god that the world worships.
  #223  
Old 04-12-2008, 09:33 PM
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George said:
It was never said that one had to be "born again" to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
You can only state this if you can prove without dispute that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are different kingdoms, and you are not even certain of this yourself.
  #224  
Old 04-12-2008, 09:50 PM
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George asked:
How was it possible for the "scribes" and "Pharisees" to "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men"?
Assuming as I do that the two phrases are describing the same kingdom, the answer is clear. Jesus said that one must be born again. The adversaries of Jesus rejected that, "for ye neither go in yourselves" and they through their false religion and pressure caused others not to see the truth, "neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in".
Quote:
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
I know nothing about Dr. Ruckman's position on these things. I understand that you give him high credibility in other areas. Is this idea of two kingdoms something that he espouses? I'm NOT saying that you aren't thinking for yourself here, I'm just trying to understand what might make you press the "rightly dividing" so hard that it blinds you to simple verse comparison.
  #225  
Old 04-13-2008, 12:26 AM
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C'mon, Brother! "it is far more highly probable, that there are two (2) kingdoms present at the same time" ?? This is really stretching it!

Please read the verses again that I quoted in post #210. How is it possible to read these verses plainly and straightforward and not see that Jesus is speaking of the same thing?

By the way, where in the Scriptures does God acknowledge that satan rules of an earthly kingdom? In Matthew 4, satan claims that the kingdoms are his to give. Remember he is the father of lies; he is the deceiver. (If he told me that the sky was blue, I would look outside to see for myself! )
He is the god of this world, that is, he is the god that the world worships.
We have reached an impasse - You have ignored every verse that I presented that clearly demonstrates that these two kingdoms cannot be the same - and revert back to calling my attention to the verses you've cited to prove they are the same. I acknowledge those verses and simply say that the Lord was citing two Kingdoms, since he came to challenge Satan for one (the kingdom of heaven) and brought the other (the kingdom of God) with Him.

You can only say "it appears to me" (because of the verses that you cite); while I reiterate that I have presented verses that demonstrate that they clearly are not the same. The difference being, that while they only "appear" to be the same in the verses you cited - they clearly can not be the same in the verses I cited.

No where's in the scriptures does it say or intimate that Satan "claims" that the kingdoms are his, on the contrary the Lord never "disputed" that so-called "claim". You must change or modify the word of God to come up with this "private interpretation". Just because Satan is the "father of lies", doesn't mean that "everything" that he says or claims is a lie. Remember Eve in the Garden? And what of the first two temptations preceding this one? Did Satan "lie" in them? No! As matter of fact he even quoted scripture to the Lord twice.

The Devil is not only "the father of lies", he is also a murderer from the beginning: John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Satan is not only the god that this world "worships", he is the god that they "follow" [1 Timothy 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.]- he is temporarily in charge of this world system. How can you explain the hatred around the world by almost all forms of Government (Communism, Socialism, Dictatorships, Democracies, Mohamedism (Islam); almost all Educational Institutions: almost all of the Media; etc. for the God of creation; and for His Holy word; and for His people (Jews & Christians)? Is this hatred just coincidental? Not hardly! Read the Book of Daniel - God gives us a "peek" at how the spirit world works in conjunction with the physical.

How can you explain the circumstances that have produced a near total "blackout" of the word of God in nearly 4/5's of the world's population? (China-1 Billion + people; India-1 Billion + people; most Muslim countries-1 Billion+ people; Russia; Vietnam; and whole sections of Africa? Plus strong resistance in most of South America; the rest of Asia; the Island nations of Indonesia; parts of the Philippines? Not to mention that the Scriptures have been practically banned from the schools; government; and the public square in most of the western world? If Satan is not in control - WHO is? WHO could possibly exercise this kind of perverse influence worldwide?

And this doesn't take in to account the lack of "faithful" translations of the word of God in those countries mentioned above and the proliferation of "corrupt" Bibles in the U.S.A. And you "think" that all this has just come about "accidentally"? That's why I posted those essays on Humanism and have encouraged people to check out the Humanist Manifestos I II & III to see for themselves how Satan has blinded the minds of people everywhere; and has perversely influenced world governments; and corrupted Christian churches throughout the Western world and the U.S.A.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Isaiah 23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Jeremiah 25:26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.


All the "kingdoms of this world are not God's - at this moment. But there will come a time, there will be a day when they will be. Until then Satan is in control of the world system and he is working overtime to destroy everything and everybody that is connected to God Almighty.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I am looking forward to that wonderful day! And the sooner it comes the better.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
  #226  
Old 04-13-2008, 05:49 AM
jerry
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Revelation 22 is dealing with eternity - all of the saved will have access to the tree of life.

In regards to the servants in Matthew 25, all of mankind is responsible before God and will give account to Jesus when He returns. In the OT, all Israel was God's servant - and it is quite clear that not all Israel was saved.

Isaiah 42:18-20 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
  #227  
Old 04-13-2008, 12:49 PM
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Revelation 22 is dealing with eternity - all of the saved will have access to the tree of life.

In regards to the servants in Matthew 25, all of mankind is responsible before God and will give account to Jesus when He returns. In the OT, all Israel was God's servant - and it is quite clear that not all Israel was saved.

Isaiah 42:18-20 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
WHY?

If we are SAVED - Of what use (to us) is the tree of life? We obtained our Salvation from our Saviour's sinless life; His death; and His shed blood. What have we to do with the Tree of Life? Our LIFE is in HIM! NOT in the tree of life!

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Isn't it clear (from scripture) that God prevented Adam and Eve from eating of the tree of life in order to prevent them from living "forever" in their sinful condition.

Whoever eats of the tree of life obtains eternal life - We already have (possess) eternal life, so (if we are to make any "sense" of scripture) the tree of life MUST be for someone else (besides us). Someone who as of yet does not possess eternal life; but who is in "need' of it; and who will receive it - from the tree of life {at some point in The Lord Jesus Christ's Eternal Kingdom.}

NOTICE: Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Somebody ("they") earns the "right" to the tree of life by doing His commandments! And why is that so? So they can obtain eternal life - which we already have!
  #228  
Old 04-13-2008, 01:29 PM
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First, I have responded to your posts and have attempted to answer most of the questions that you have asked. I am not ignoring anything you have written, but if you expect for me to explain each and every verse that you give, please separate them into different posts, so that the space and time needed to answer does not become unbearable for either of us. Before you do this, you have said we are at an impass, so it may be best not to continue.

Next, yes, I do use the phrase "it appears to me" or something similar, because I am a fallible human. I can only describe the truth as I see it and understand it. That you have determined that Jesus is saying two different things at the same time is your educated opinion, but it is not the final fact.

On the LORD's temptation:
Quote:
George said:
...on the contrary the Lord never "disputed" that so-called "claim".
...As matter of fact he [satan] even quoted scripture to the Lord twice.
As I read the Gospel story, the Scriptures never made it evident that Jesus ever disputed with satan about anything. He simply commanded him.
Satan only used a single OT quotation, not two. Even with that he added and deleted words, thus making an incomplete or inaccurate statement (which he is wont to do). His favorite trick is to take truth and alter it just slightly so that it becomes distorted and weak. Example: NKJV.
  #229  
Old 04-13-2008, 02:21 PM
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Who is getting saved in eternity, in the new heaven and earth? No one - everyone there will be saved. What that passage is indicating is that everyone who is living there will be obeying God - it is not indicating there will be rebels on the new earth at that time.
  #230  
Old 04-14-2008, 09:32 AM
Daveoldpath Daveoldpath is offline
 
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[QUOTE=George;1595]

On my web page I have nearly 90 Bible lessons (70+ are mine). I only have two lessons where I reprove and rebuke a so-called Bible believer by name (The so-called “Doctrine of Submission”) and Dr. Stewart Custer (The Truth about The King James controversy"). I have not been called by God to “correct” the body of Christ. My ministry has been one of Reconciliation (if possible – 2Corinthians 5:18); and Edification (Romans 15:2). I thank God that I wasn’t called to brother Ruckman’s ministry. I would have needed skin as thick as a rhinoceros to bear up under his load.




What is your web site?

Dave
 

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