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  #21  
Old 03-27-2008, 03:19 PM
jerry
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The word for face here means "the front (as being towards view)." To the lost, the OT has a veil over it - with the NT (and salvation), it is not a glass darkly (enigma, riddle - something hard to figure out), but something we can view clearly now.

Here is the same word used:

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Obviously the glass here is the Word of God - as we see the Lord in the Bible, we are transformed into His image by the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Same word for face.

James 1:23-25 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Same word for face, and the glass is again obviously referring to the Word of God - which is called here "the perfect law of liberty."

It fits "when that which is perfect is come."

I may not be explaining it very well in this thread - but the two other places where glass is used in the NT, it is referring to the Bible. Some of the same words are used in all three passages - why would this one passage be referring to something totally different?

Quote:
I certainly don't believe that sign gifts are in use today, but this verse doesn't present a strong argument to me for that.
Verses 8-12 all refer to the same thing - the doing away with the sign gifts. I am certainly not trying to make verse 12 stand alone and teach something the rest of the context is not.

I don't say this to make you accept my position, but it is interesting to note that David Cloud, Oliver B. Greene, D.A. Waite, Charles Spurgeon, Dennis Corle, and various other solid men of God hold to this same position (though I may not have explained it as well as them).

Here is part of the study referred to one page one of this thread:

Quote:
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

The word for "see" here means "to behold; perceive." "Glass" means "mirror", and is a compound word. The second part (Strong's #3700) means "to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable.)" This is in contrast with Strong's #3708, which means "to stare at, i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally)." "Darkly" is from the Greek word that we get "enigma" from. Webster's defines enigma as "A dark saying, in which some known thing is concealed under obscure language; an obscure question; a riddle." In other words, something that we haven't figured out yet, or that we don't have the whole picture. This corresponds to having only part of the New Testament written at this point in time. (Remember that the Apostle Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church was one of the earliest, if not the earliest, letter he penned.)

"Face to face" doesn't necessarily mean that we see someone's face, but that we see the front of an object, i.e. that it is towards our view. (#4383) "Now" means "just now; this day (hour); present." The first word for "know" (know in part) is "ginosko" which means "be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, can speak, be sure, understand." In other words, at that point in time the believers only had partial revelation, partial knowledge.

The second word for "know" is "epiginosko", and means "to know upon some mark, i.e. recognize; by implication, to become fully acquainted with, to acknowledge." This doesn't have to refer to when we get "full knowledge" in Heaven, but when we get the finished (perfect), full canon of Scripture, which was completed when the Apostle John wrote the final book of the Bible: the book of Revelation. Now that we have the complete Bible we can understand the types and pictures of Christ, prophecies, etc. in the Old Testament which were just enigmas to us before. We need the New Testament to completely understand and properly interpret the Old Testament. Up until the end of the first century, believers were missing part of the picture; they only knew in part. Now we can know fully what the Lord intends to reveal to His children, by interpreting the Old Testament in light of the New. (See 2 Peter 1:3-4 and Deuteronomy 29:29) There will not be further revelation beyond the complete (perfect - Psalm 19:7; James 1:25) Bible. (See the warning at the end of the Bible: Revelation 22:18-19)

James 1:22-25 is a perfect capstone to this train of logic, and is a parallel passage of Scripture speaking about the same things.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Here we have many of the same Greek words again. "Beholding" (#2657) means "to observe fully:--behold, consider, discover, perceive." "Face" is Strong's #4383 again. The idea here is being face to face with our own reflection, not face to face with the Saviour. I believe the first passage I covered is referring to the same thing. And James said that as we look into the Scriptures we "observe fully" ourselves. The word for "looketh" in verse 25 means "to bend beside, i.e. lean over (so as to peer within); look (into)."

Finally, there is one more parallel passage:

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The word for "open" means "to unveil." Face is the same word. To "behold as in a glass" means "to mirror oneself, i.e. to see reflected (figuratively)." We are seeing ourselves (our own reflections) in the glass (mentioned in all three passages.) As we see ourselves as we really are, and as we see Jesus Christ in the Scriptures we are changed into His image, His likeness. We are transformed, "metamorphosized" (Strong's #3339) through the reading and studying of God's Word! (See Romans 12:2 and Colossians 3:10)
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  #22  
Old 03-27-2008, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jerry View Post
1 Corinthians was one of the first New Testament books to be written. At that point in time, the early church only did know in part. We need the full NT to open up the Old Testament for us.

Please consider the points raised in this study, as well as the word studies and parallel passages: 1 Corinthians 13:8-12.

Obviously there are some here who are going to disagree with my overall premise right at the start - but at least read the studies, see which words are used in the passage and the parallel passages (to determine if they are indeed referring to the same thing - ie, the glass/mirror being God's Word, which it is clearly declared in two other NT passages), and see the definitions of the words used - I list both Strong's and Webster's - so even those people who dislike Strong's can still see what the actual English words mean. Then after studying these passages and words out, you will be in a better position to discuss this issue - even if you disagree with my conclusions.

Song of Solomon 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

In the OT, we see Jesus through a lattice, a screen, hidden - until the light of the NT shines on the OT - then you see Him everywhere, in the construction of the tabernacle, in the animal sacrifices, in the countless types, in the Messianic prophecies, and even in many other passages of Scripture (as the one who is speaking - see Isaiah 48:16, as the Angel of the Lord, as God walking in the Garden of Eden - see John 1:18 [it wasn't the Father appearing to them, as no man has seen the Father at any time - it was the Son that took on the appearance of flesh, then later was manifest in the flesh]).
Re: 1 Corinthians 13:12 - By Jerry Bouey

{All underlines are mine – My comments are in Italics - George}

“1 Corinthians was one of the first New Testament books to be written.”

How do you know that this was one of the “first” New Testament Books written? This is pure speculation on the part of some “scholars” which should not even enter into your "premise", since it has no bearing on the subject at hand. However, if you are using this “speculation” as part of your argument, then you are already starting out on the “wrong” foundation i.e. the “speculation” of “scholars” – which has proven over and over to be nothing but sand – QUICKSAND.

“At that point in time, the early church only did know in part.”

Are you claiming that now - we have arrived? (we know so much more now); that is now - we “know even as also I am known”? The Scriptures say that: “. . . . . . for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men” [1 Kings 8:39 & 2 Chronicles 6:30] and again: “And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts . . . .” [Luke 16:15]; “And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;” [Acts 15:8]. Are you claiming that NOW we know even as God knows us? Is that possible in the sorry state that we find ourselves in (I’m referring to our carnal flesh; our weak conscience; our wicked & deceitful heart; our minds susceptible to corruption; our spirit that can get dirty – not the Holy Spirit that dwells within each believer). We aren’t going to: “know even as also I am known” until we get our glorified bodies and are made perfect in Christ – at last.

I do not know everything. And though I have met several really talented Bible teachers and have read many more – I have yet to meet any Christian elder/pastor/teacher that knows everything. The verse says: 1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. Paul included himself in the equation.

“We need the full NT to open up the Old Testament for us.”

Amen to that brother, but I will have to add a “caveat” to that – We also need the Holy Spirit to give us discernment, understanding, and wisdom; and to reveal the truth of God’s words to us in both the Old & New Testaments [1 Corinthians 2:1-16]. Possessing or having the whole “Canon” or complete Bible has never been a “guarantee” for doctrinal purity or for God’s people knowing: “even as also I am known”. (The Eastern Orthodox Church had the Scriptures (in the hallowed GREEK) and I doubt that any one on this Forum would say that that church is a “bastion of orthodoxy”.

”Please consider the points raised in this study, as well as the word studies and parallel passages: 1 Corinthians 13:8-12.”

When I first came across this thread in the Forum a couple of weeks ago I followed your link to your web page and read (and re-read) your paper on this subject. I disagreed with it then and I still do – but I never responded. But when I noticed some other brethren on this Forum in agreement with your “premise” or interpretation of the verses I could no longer “contain”.

“Obviously there are some here who are going to disagree with my overall premise right at the start - but at least read the studies, see which words are used in the passage and the parallel passages (to determine if they are indeed referring to the same thing – i.e., the glass/mirror being God's Word, which it is clearly declared in two other NT passages), and see the definitions of the words used - I list both Strong's and Webster's - so even those people who dislike Strong's can still see what the actual English words mean. Then after studying these passages and words out, you will be in a better position to discuss this issue - even if you disagree with my conclusions.”

I read and re-read the “study” that you presented and I don’t mean to be offensive, but to be honest, when I saw the method you employ to study the Bible and how you arrive at your "conclusions" – it scares me. For example: you statement above about "the glass/mirror being God's Word" - did you forget Revelation 21:21? "And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass". Glass in the Bible if it is looked INTO is a mirror; glass that you look THROUGH is "transparent glass". There are at least 2 kinds of glass not just one as you have presented your "premise".

I do not nor have I ever used Strong’s for any other purpose than looking up verses with the same word in it. The Bible has given us the only method by which we are to study: [Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:] and just to make sure that we “get it” God repeated Himself: [Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.] I never have allowed James Strong or Noah Webster determine the meaning of any word in the Bible when it comes to spiritual matters. I want to be clear here – For example: when it comes to the definition of the body-soul-spirit (our “substance”) & the heart-soul-conscience (our “faculties”) I would no sooner rely on Strong or Webster to give me God’s definition of these words than I would Charles Darwin or Richard Dawkins!

If I want the definition of the heart (approximately 950 occurrences in 880 verses); or mind (111 occurrences in 108 verses); or conscience (32 occurrences in 30 verses - None in the Old Testament)- ditto body, soul, & spirit; etc. I read ALL of the verses {“line upon line”} and I Collate, Categorize, Compile & Catalogue the verses (by “precept upon precept” – “here a little, and there a little”). I don’t go to a man (Strong or Webster or Ruckman or Cloud or any other man) to get the definition.

This takes time and effort – but by the time I am through I will have a far better idea of what God says and means than taking a “short cut” to Strong’s and get his personal definition of what he “thinks” a Hebrew or Greek word “means”.

(The following is part of Jerry's post):
Song of Solomon 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

"In the OT, we see Jesus through a lattice, a screen, hidden - until the light of the NT shines on the OT - then you see Him everywhere, in the construction of the tabernacle, in the animal sacrifices, in the countless types, in the Messianic prophecies, and even in many other passages of Scripture (as the one who is speaking - see Isaiah 48:16, as the Angel of the Lord, as God walking in the Garden of Eden - see John 1:18 [it wasn't the Father appearing to them, as no man has seen the Father at any time - it was the Son that took on the appearance of flesh, then later was manifest in the flesh])."

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the Old Testament in "type"; prophecies; etc. However, I believe that most of your exegesis is pure "speculation" and or "private interpretation" and I shall endeavor in a later post to analyze your whole thesis (premise) in great detail.

Last edited by George; 03-27-2008 at 06:51 PM.
  #23  
Old 03-27-2008, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Biblestudent View Post
By the way, I believe in:
1. Speaking in tongues when you talk in different languages to preach the completed Word of God.
2. Prophesying when it means "forth telling" the completed Word of God.
3. Healing as an answer to prayer according to the completed Word of God.
But:
1. There is no GIFT OF TONGUES today for we already have the completed Word of God.
2. There is no extra-biblical PROPHECIES needed today for we have the completed Word of God.
3. There is no GIFT OF HEALING of "ALL KINDS OF SICKNESS AND ALL KINDS OF DISEASES" as was done in Matthew 4 when there was not yet the completed Word of God, for the complete revelation tell us in 2 Corinthians 12 that God's GRACE IS SUFFICIENT (gift of healing is not) and that God is able to do above what we ask or think (Eph), and not just merely give what we ask (Mat 7).
According to the completed Word of God, in this age of grace, God may or may not answer our prayer for physical healing for God's grace of salvation is sufficient, whereas under the kingdom program they receive instantaneous answer to there specific prayers for physical healing, but they have to endure and hold on to the end to be saved.
Which one is better?
Physical healing, no eternal security?
or
Eternal security even without physical healing?
I'm complete in Christ. I don't speak in tongues-no gift of healing-no extra-biblical prophesying-no poison drinking - no handling snakes, but I'm saved by the grace of God and nothing shall be able to separate me from the love of Christ. Amen!
Aloha brother Sammy,

Just a short note to your post:

By the way, I believe in:
1. Speaking in tongues when you talk in different languages to preach the completed Word of God. (AMEN TO THAT - George)
2. Prophesying when it means "forth telling" the completed Word of God. (AMEN TO THAT - George)
3. Healing as an answer to prayer according to the completed Word of God. (AMEN TO THAT - George)

But:
1. There is no GIFT OF TONGUES today for we already have the completed Word of God. (How about: "There is no GIFT OF TONGUES today" because the "sign gifts" have ceased because God is not dealing with the nation of Israel - at this time - George)
2. There is no extra-biblical PROPHECIES needed today for we have the completed Word of God. (How about: "There is no extra-biblical PROPHECIES needed today" because the "sign gifts" have ceased because God is not dealing with the nation of Israel - at this time - George)
3. There is no GIFT OF HEALING of "ALL KINDS OF SICKNESS AND ALL KINDS OF DISEASES" as was done in Matthew 4 when there was not yet the completed Word of God, for the complete revelation tell us in 2 Corinthians 12 that God's GRACE IS SUFFICIENT (gift of healing is not) and that God is able to do above what we ask or think (Eph), and not just merely give what we ask (Mat 7). ("There is no GIFT OF HEALING" - Agreed about the "gift" & "healers" but again, How about: The "sign gifts" have ceased because God is not dealing with the nation of Israel - at this time - George)

According to the completed Word of God, in this age of grace, God may or may not answer our prayer for physical healing for God's grace of salvation is sufficient, whereas under the kingdom program they receive instantaneous answer to there specific prayers for physical healing, but they have to endure and hold on to the end to be saved.
Which one is better? (I'm with you on most of what you said - But how about: According to the word of God, "in this age of grace", God is not obligated to perform any physical signs, miracles, or wonders - because we (Christians) are to walk by "Faith" and not by "Sight". We are not Jews, who could "require" signs [1Corinthians 1:22]. We are those who by faith (through the hearing of the word of God) have received Salvation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - We cannot require signs, etc. for: "the just shall live by faith" - NOt sight.)

Physical healing, no eternal security?
or
Eternal security even without physical healing?

I'm complete in Christ. I don't speak in tongues-no gift of healing-no extra-biblical prophesying-no poison drinking - no handling snakes, but I'm saved by the grace of God and nothing shall be able to separate me from the love of Christ. Amen! (Amen and amen to that brother!)

Yours for the Lord Jesus Christ and for His Holy Word,

George (My comments in Italics)
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:39 PM
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Bro. George,
Thanks for being clear which one do you agree and which one you do not agree. You're right in saying that I'm not alone in this position. So please allow me some time. I'm very open minded, especially when confronted with actual words of Scripture. I'll give my reply in the next post.
Thank you!
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:20 PM
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Bro. George,
I agree with what you said, although that I'm not quite convinced that it excludes the canon of Scriptures.

I seldom consult commentaries except that of Bible believers (although they're still scarce here), for I was taught the best commentary to the Bible is the Bible.

So I re-read this passage again, and here are some of my observations:

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Here, Paul is talking about something incomplete - "in part". As you know, 1 Corinthians was written during the Acts transition period. Other than the gospel of grace, Paul knew when he wrote 1 Corinthians that God progressively reveals His Word to him in "visions" and "revelations" to come (2Cor. 12:1). Since the only sure sign that he speaks the Word of God is to have these sign gifts to confirm the word, they have to have that. But...

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

So I believe that that which is perfect refers to the complete revelation of God (dispensationally speaking, the full revelation of the mystery to Paul), thus, the completed Word of God, and that includes the canon (if we believe the complete Word of God is the canon of 66 books).

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

God is gradually revealing to Paul the mystery, and so that what Paul writes "fulfills" the Word of God.

But during the Acts period, when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, there are still things not so clear:

1Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

But now, what was unclear is now made "manifest":

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

I further observed that in 1 Corinthians 13, there is no reference to Christ being the one spoken of as "that which is perfect".
  #26  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:41 PM
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1 Corinthians 13:12a For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
1 Corinthians 13:12b now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I don't think, this is not "spiritualizing" to say that Paul is using the expressions "see through a glass, darkly" and "face to face" as an illustration. You know, he is not looking through a literal "glass" so it is safe to say he is not referring to a literal "face". Looking through dark crystal or dark eyeglasses is much more different than looking face to face. This is an illustration. The interpretation of that is that "now" (that time) Paul knows "in part" (the dark "glass"), but then he shall "know" even as also he is "known" ("face to face").

Looking at the structure of the verse above, notice the semicolons and the COLON in between. We can see the parallelism there. The first half is interpreted by the last half. If this is correct, this is another wonder of the KJB's "built-in commentary".

see through a glass, darkly = now I know in part
face to face = then shall I know

It's true that "face to face" means "face to face". Here in 1 Corinthians, "glass" means "glass" and "face to face" means "face to face", but the literal glass is used to illustrate "in part" knowledge while "face to face" is used to illustrate clear, complete knowledge.

Finally, if "face to face" is the literal fulfillment rather than the illustration, with whom is Paul going to see "face to face"? With that "which is perfect"? The Lord and His Word are both "perfect". I find no reference to Christ in the whole chapter, but it's sure he's dealing with sign gifts soon to be done away with being replaced by something perfect or complete.
  #27  
Old 03-28-2008, 08:19 AM
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I find no reference to Christ in the whole chapter, but it's sure he's dealing with sign gifts soon to be done away with being replaced by something perfect or complete.
Then, the signs were around until the NT was "complete." When John penned his last words, the signs dissappeared, or maybe when the books were all gathered into one canon, then they were "done away."

Or, perhaps, (in his final words) Paul left Trophimus "at Miletum sick" because the gifts were already gone, long before the NT was "perfect."

Time and time again, y'all try to make it (that which is perfect) the Book and it just doesn't work.
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Old 03-28-2008, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by pbiwolski View Post
Then, the signs were around until the NT was "complete." When John penned his last words, the signs dissappeared, or maybe when the books were all gathered into one canon, then they were "done away."

Or, perhaps, (in his final words) Paul left Trophimus "at Miletum sick" because the gifts were already gone, long before the NT was "perfect."

Time and time again, y'all try to make it (that which is perfect) the Book and it just doesn't work.
It works!

In Colossians 1:25, Paul says his ministry was to "fulfil" the Word of God. His epistles are going to perfect that which is lacking in the whole revelation of God. If you've read well my previous posts, I said that John's "Revelation" added nothing new to OT revelations (prophecies) except to add more details. But Paul's was TOTALLY NEW for it was hidden in th past.

When it was revealed to him, God had to give him apostolic signs to validate his ministry - "to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery" (Eph. 3). As he reaches to the end of his journey, and the lacking revelation has been perfected, signs have ceased.

John wrote the last book in the Bible and was given the details of revelations REVEALED BEFORE, but Paul was the last apostle given the last revelaton NOT REVEALED BEFORE. Thus, when that which is perfect is come (the complete revelation of the Word of God), that which is in part shall be done away (sign gifts).

Sign gifts and added revelations are gradually recalled to the end of the canon. For example, since the completed revelation of the mystery and the dispensation of grace was given to Paul, signs have ceased; and after John the Apostle have penned the prophetic book of the Revelation, there were no more God-ordained extra-Biblical visions and revelations.

See? It works.

I don't know if anyone can prove that Polycarp, Ignatius, Justin Martyr or any of the "church fathers" ever spoke in tongues, healed miraculously, received extra-Biblical visions and revelations, and delivered extra-Biblical prophecies. The next person I remember (there may be others) in church history, who claims to have seen a vision, was the Roman Catholics' first "pope", Constantine. Some of the latter ones who received extra-Biblical visions were Joseph Smith and Ellen White. Of course, there are many others, since they do not believe that "that which is perfect is come".

Let me remind everyone that the context of the "charity" chapter (1 Cor. 13) is signs. They sure need charity during the Acts transition period. The gift of tongues is one of the signs and it (1 Cor. 13:8) shall cease when that which is perfect is come. If it's not the complete revelation of God's Word, then what is it? The only verse that tell us that tongues SHALL CEASE is 1 Cor. 13:8, and the only verse that tell us WHEN it shall cease is 1 Cor. 13:10. If that which is perfect has not come yet, then "forbid not to speak in tongues" till that comes (1 Cor. 14:39).

Last edited by Biblestudent; 03-28-2008 at 08:56 AM.
  #29  
Old 03-28-2008, 09:04 AM
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I absolutely agree with Bro. George when he said that the reason why NO SIGNS are used by God today is because signs are for the Jews, and God is no longer dealing with the Jews today.
They have signs in Corinth because God was still dealing with the "Jew first" during the Acts period, but after that, there is no more advantage for them. God is now dealing with all men without distinction. So signs have no use today.
  #30  
Old 03-28-2008, 09:05 AM
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Forbid not to speak in tongues - an application of that today could be to let a German missionary preach in an English-speaking church if there is an interpretor present. If not, he has to be silent.
 

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