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  #11  
Old 04-15-2008, 11:44 AM
Connie
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Why would the references to Antiochus defiling the temple be literal, yet the ones about the Antichrist doing so be figurative - when they are BOTH found in Daniel?
Isn't this a common pattern for prophecy? More than one fulfillment, and both don't have to be physical fulfillments. The Jews understood the kingdom to be brought in by the Messiah to be an earthly kingdom that would be over all earthly kingdoms, they weren't anticipating the Kingdom of God brought by Christ.

Anyway, as I said, in the time of Antiochus Christ had not yet come so the temple sacrifices were legitimate; after Christ they are not, they could only be a blasphemous usurpation of His once-for-all sacrifice. That doesn't mean a temple will not be built in Jerusalem though.

I don't know what it means, Jerry, I just know that the temple is no longer legitimate because of Christ, so I have to take that as a crucial condition for understanding references to the temple. In the New Testament the temple always refers to the body of believers; whether that is how to understand the temple Ezekiel measured or not I don't yet know.

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Have you read Ezekiel? Chapters 40 on describe the temple that will be built by the Lord or His people in the Millenium.
What is the Biblical basis for placing this temple in the "millennium" and if it is to be built by the Lord or His people why couldn't it be figurative of His people? As I say, I don't have a certain answer to this: ALL I know is that a literal temple after Christ has come would be blasphemy.

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This is God's inspired account. There is no way a Jewish temple in itself is evil - perhaps what is done in it might be.
OK, that's reasonable, but Christ DID destroy the temple itself so rebuilding it is sort of like rebuilding Jericho after God destroyed it. In any case, your interpretation of the Antichrist's role has him stopping the sacrifices so sacrifices are expected to be occurring.

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Revelation 11:1-2 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Why would God tell John to measure the Tribulational temple, if there were no literal temple?
I don't know the answer to that. All I know is what I've been saying, that after Christ has died for our sins it is no longer needed.

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And you keep making statements about how could that temple be holy? Who said it was - not the Bible.
The idea is that if Antichrist can defile it as Antiochus's pig sacrifice did, then it is being treated as a legitimate temple and the temple was the center of Jewish life and its functions holy. If it can be defiled then it must be holy is the idea.

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The holy place and holy of holies refer to places within the temple, not necessarily to its state.
OK, but the point was that if it can be "defiled" then it is being treated as legitimate or even holy somehow or other, and it is certainly UNholy because it usurps the place of Christ, that's my only point.

Have you done the studies about how the tabernacle was a type of Christ? The temple design was based on the tabernacle. It is symbolic. The veil to the holy of holies was rent when Jesus died, symbolizing our access to God made possible through His death. I don't know why the temple is being so literally measured in Ezekiel and in Revelation, but given its function as a type of Christ I suppose this measuring also has a symbolic meaning although I don't know what that is.

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Obviously when a temple is defiled, it is no more holy. That is why Daniel refers to the Jews cleansing the temple after Antiochus' defiling of it. There is no reference to the temple being cleansed after the Antichrist defiles it - which could indicate the rebuilding of it prior to the return of Christ is not endorsed by God. However, God doesn't have to approve of it to foretell it happening.
I agree, it may be built and its rebuilding is being planned in Israel even now.

Last edited by Connie; 04-15-2008 at 11:48 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04-15-2008, 01:00 PM
jerry
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In the New Testament the temple always refers to the body of believers; whether that is how to understand the temple Ezekiel measured or not I don't yet know.
Why would God give specific measurements if they were not meant literally? We also have a literal temple mentioned in Revelation. Perhaps you are forcing your theology into the Bible where it doesn't fit. The Bible in various places teaches an endtimes temple.

How does an Pope defile God's temple of believers? He can't - that is a spiritual temple that only the Holy Spirit can dwell in.

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Isn't this a common pattern for prophecy? More than one fulfillment, and both don't have to be physical fulfillments.
There is no such things as a fulfillment of prophecy that is not literal (how could you ever know if it was fulfilled then or not? You couldn't - beyond guesswork or making something mean whatever you wanted it to). Even prophetic types are still fulfilled literally. Eg. Jesus being the Lamb of God that would take away our sins - He was still literally sacrificed for our sins.

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What is the Biblical basis for placing this temple in the "millennium" and if it is to be built by the Lord or His people why couldn't it be figurative of His people? As I say, I don't have a certain answer to this: ALL I know is that a literal temple after Christ has come would be blasphemy.
I have a real hard time listening to people denying something in the Bible and then stating it would be blasphemy if such and such were true. The cultists do that with an eternal Hell and the suffering of the wicked. Some Calvinists do that with some of their teachings about predestination. Before you start making claims that something is blasphemy, you better make sure you study out the Bible and know clearly what it says. Ezekiel quite clearly indicates it will be a literal, physical temple that God gives dimensions for, refers to the servants of, the (memorial) sacrifices in it, its location, etc. In the same chapters also describes a literal dividing of the land of Israel - doesn't make sense to have so many literal things referred to, and then spend about 5 or 6 chapters describing the dimensions of the temple, etc. if He didn't mean them to be taken literally as well.

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I don't know the answer to that. All I know is what I've been saying, that after Christ has died for our sins it is no longer needed.
There will still be animal sacrifices in the Millenium, according to Ezekiel - we can't base our theology on "it shouldn't be." That is why above I used the word "memorial" in reference to these sacrifices, as I think that has to be the purpose for them. Either way, Ezekiel makes it very clear that it will be God's temple, where sacrifices are made by His people, offered by His priests, and where His glory dwells.

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I don't know why the temple is being so literally measured in Ezekiel and in Revelation, but given its function as a type of Christ I suppose this measuring also has a symbolic meaning although I don't know what that is.
The same purpose is in view - literal dimensions picturing things about Christ. Symbols have the same meaning, regardless of where they are used in the Bible. What the temple/tabernacle symbols pictured in Exodus and Chronicles, they still picture in Ezekiel - however, it will still be a literal temple.
  #13  
Old 04-15-2008, 02:11 PM
Connie
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When you start saying I'm denying something in the Bible I think it's time to end the discussion. I'm basing what I said ON the Bible. All I'm "denying" is your interpretation, not the Bible. You may have a different interpretation, and you may even be right, but treating your reading as the only honest reading takes the conversation to a level I don't want to go.

Thanks for the discussion to this point though.
  #14  
Old 04-15-2008, 04:42 PM
Connie
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Back to leave this link with you. This is from a series of talks on signs of the end times that I've been following for a few months now. I think the guy is right on in general and that all Christians should be paying close attention to these signs as the last of the last days are fast coming upon us, but the reason I'm posting this latest one is because he mentions that plans are underway for the temple to be built in Jerusalem -- about 15 minutes into the talk. (It's specifically about the Da Vinci code stuff and a new movie out about it).

I've said that on this thread already but I wanted to be very clear that I'm not with those who say it isn't going to happen just because they disagree with this or that interpretation that involves the temple. I am definitely expecting it to happen, even though I see it as blasphemy against Christ.

So I recommend this talk. http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...SID=4140820705

Last edited by Connie; 04-15-2008 at 04:44 PM.
  #15  
Old 04-18-2008, 09:49 PM
look3467
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The point of Jesus' coming was to restore what was lost in "one day"
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Now, how did He go about it?

That is what the Book of Revelation, and the rest of the books is all about.

It is not the works of mankind that is the subject, but Jesus' works.

One day, a day in the life of Jesus was dedicated, as God, to deliver the world out of eternal damnation due to the separation.
DAN 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make """an end of sins,""" and to make reconciliation for iniquity,""" and to """bring in everlasting righteousness,""" and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
THE DAY OF THE CROSS IS THE 1,000 YEAR REIGN OF CHRIST, THE 70 YEARS DEAD OR DESOLATE IS JESUS AS THE CITY JERUSALEM. THE DAY IS ALSO FOR AN HOUR, A DAY, A MONTH AND A YEAR. THE 70 YEARS DEAD, ARE ALSO THE 70 WEEKS OF DANIEL. THE SHORT TIME JESUS IS PHYSICALLY DEAD FROM SUNSET TO SUNSET.
Jesus accomplished it all in one day, the whole 6 day creation and rested on the Sabbath.

Went to hell, and burst open the gates, and opened the gates of heaven, so that all who lived prior to Jesus would be included in the redemption.

Peace>>>AJ
That day is divided into 7 equal parts, one part for each day of creation.

In my last post I gave an outline of that day: The same day is as like four beasts with six wings, as in 4-6hr periods of the day.
1. period= Jesus at the last supper

2. period=Jesus receiving the sins of the world at the garden
3. Is Jesus being judged and sentenced
4. Sentence carried out.

The heavenly Jerusalem, which is Christ, came down to mankind, and was lifted up.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This next verse is Jesus who endured to the end on our behalf and not as many think, as being us.

Yes, we can endure till the end, but only in Jesus.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

There is absolutely no threat to anyone seeking to get revelation from God concerning any questions we might have.

Sometimes we are taken for aride on the other side so that we might be able to see clearly what God wants us to understand.

And I can tell you I have traveled on the other side, meaning I have looked into other religious beliefs, practices and considered cults.

The temple that the Jewish people need to build is not an earthly temple, for that one can be destroyed readily, but the one that they need to build is in their hearts.

That time will come I believe around 2029. When they will see Jesus as the Son of God and this verse be fulfilled:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

When Isreal does that, they will not need an earthly temple, for the temple will be in their hearts.


  #16  
Old 04-18-2008, 11:22 PM
Connie
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One day, a day in the life of Jesus was dedicated, as God, to deliver the world out of eternal damnation due to the separation.

DAN 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make """an end of sins,""" and to make reconciliation for iniquity,""" and to """bring in everlasting righteousness,""" and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
. . . SHORT TIME JESUS IS PHYSICALLY DEAD FROM SUNSET TO SUNSET.
Jesus accomplished it all in one day, the whole 6 day creation and rested on the Sabbath.
This is mostly true, but the whole seventy weeks was not completed in that time. There is one week of the seventy that remains unfulfilled. Yes, Jesus' death and resurrection fulfilled that prophecy in one day, but there remains a portion of the prophecy yet to be completed. I don't understand how you think the millennium was fulfilled in that single day or some of the other equations you make, but the seventy weeks of years counts the time from -- as I understand it -- the decree of Cyrus to the first coming of Christ, and He did finish the transgression and made an end of sins at that time, for those who believe in Him. The complete fulfillment is yet future, and very very close I think, a lot closer than 2029.
 

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