[peopleoftheway]

After visiting Jordans website I can confirm his insincerity in his posts, particularly when he asked about what group of KJV only he would fit into himself, which is a deceitful statement in its own right because this exert of his OWN website clearly marks his own beliefs as ANTI KJB

In this video I discuss what KJV-Onlyism is and why I do not think it is right, and why I do not believe that the KJV of the Bible is the only correct translation. There are many translations out there...use whatever one God speaks to you through!

Your Video by the way contains the same old tired arguments apostate Bible correctors have been using against the Bible, and EVERY one is easily answered and refuted.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Try at least to be honest and open if you are to call yourself a Born again Child of God, not underhand and deceitful.

[Jordan]

So because of me not being KJV only, that makes me Anti-KJV? I don't understand that, because I actually read from the KJV mostly.

[George]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

After visiting Jordans website I can confirm his insincerity in his posts, particularly when he asked about what group of KJV only he would fit into himself, which is a deceitful statement in its own right because this exert of his OWN website clearly marks his own beliefs as ANTI KJB

Your Video by the way contains the same old tired arguments apostate Bible correctors have been using against the Bible, and EVERY one is easily answered and refuted.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Try at least to be honest and open if you are to call yourself a Born again Child of God, not underhand and deceitful.

Aloha brother Steven,

I gave up trying to deal with this deceptive young man in June of 2008. { AV1611 Bible Forums > Bible Versions > "Some people Should Realize" . Post#35 - http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5589&postcount=35 } Unless he ever has a change of heart, there is absolutely no sense in trying to reason with him. Like I said before:

"Should you have any doubt about the pervasive influence of a Humanistic “education” and the perverse results in a young man’s life – look no further than “Jordan”. And if you want to see what the “definition” of a “sophist” is and how he operates read on."

It is quite obvious that he has not changed his "mode of operation" (he is still as deceitful as he was nearly a year ago - perhaps even more so) and that is one reason why I refuse to even Post anything directly to him.

[Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.]

The last time "Jordan" was on the Forum he stirred up controversy. The minute he begins to post again (after a 10 month hiatus), he is right back doing the same exact thing again!

[Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.]

Just a final comment: Please notice how he mis-"USED" the Scripture in Matthew Chapter 7.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

He took the verse OUT OF CONTEXT TO PROVE A "PRETEXT"! Just exactly like all Bible deniers have done for centuries. he didn't FORGET the rest of the CONTEXT - he purposely left the next verse out, that completed the principle, or the precept that the the Lord was trying to convey:

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The teaching is perfectly clear - and it's NOT that we are NOT TO JUDGE! It's - we had better be real CAREFUL when we DO judge; and NOT judge matters that we aren't familiar with. As a matter of fact in another Scripture the Lord Jesus Christ clearly commands us NOT to judge according to APPEARANCE - but TO JUDGE "RIGHTEOUS" JUDGMENT!

[John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.]

The Apostle Paul also said that we should "Judge".

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life ?

1 Corinthians 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

I have "judged" what Jordan has said (written), and I find a young man so full of guile and deceit, that he cannot SEE the blindness of his own heart. Whenever I meet "Christians" like this I always think of what Peter said to Simon (the sorcerer). Remember: The Scriptures say that Simon "BELIEVED ALSO" [Acts 8:13], but Peter told him:

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

I cannot judge whether Jordan is saved or not, But I can judge that this young man is "in the bond of iniquity", and unless he repents of his attitude towards God's Holy word, no genuine Bible believer is going to take him seriously, or want to have anything to do with him.

What kind of a fool is it, who "CORRECTS" God's FINAL AUTHORITY, while all the while "professing" to believe "the Bible"? Even though I have encountered these kinds of "Christians" for over 40 years, I still "marvel" at the "results" of what a godless, atheistic, Humanistic education has had on children, and on their hearts and minds; and how HUMANISM has "affected" and "influenced" so many "Christian" young people these days, to the point where they CANNOT even discern between good and evil! "

Proverbs 29:20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Tony,

Before you waste very much time with "Jordan", you should review his previous "Threads: & "Posts" to see "WHERE he is coming from" and to get "a handle" on WHAT kind of person he is. WATCH OUT for the "GOTCHA" - this young man doesn't have an honest or sincere BONE in his entire body! {Check out his website - It's all about JORDAN!}

Brother, you "can bet your bottom dollar" that Jordan already knows about Origen, and is just going to "play along" or "string you along" (and others) until he sees the right moment to "pounce" and display his cunning craftiness for all to see (once again).

The following are "Jordan's" two previous Threads. {Please Consider: "THIS" from an 18 year old BOY! (at the time)}:

Jordan's Thread #1. <> 05-07-2008 09:52 PM <> Help Me <> http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...91&postcount=1
Please read through the Thread carefully (Too long to reproduce here) and see how this young man craftily asks "QUESTIONS" - to which he ALREADY KNOWS THE ANSWERS TO!


One day AFTER what "appears" to be a "SINCERE" plea for "HELP" (Jordan's Thread #1. <> "Help Me" ) - "Jordan" Posted the following Thread:

Jordan's Thread #2<> 05-08-2008 10:34 PM <> Some People Should Realize... <> http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...50&postcount=1 Jordan's Post #4 <> 05-09-2008 01:46 AM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #6 <> 05-09-2008 03:31 AM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #11 <> 05-09-2008 12:15 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #12 <> 05-09-2008 01:07 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #14 <> 05-09-2008 04:42 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
AFTER several people made various comments, Jordan posted Posts #21, #24, #26, #28, and #29 - (all very short and of no consequence). He then came out and revealed his "true colors" with his Post #31 (Notice the time lapse between his Post #29 and His Post #31. What do you suppose that our "young lad" was doing for that month? Hmmm?):

Jordan's Post #31 <> 06-08-2008, 06:33 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
This young man is one of the most deceptive young persons I have ever dealt with. I have met very few people of his age with so much "guile". If you read through his two previous Threads you can see how he "played" many of us, who at the beginning tried to truly "help" him. (However it didn't take some of us very long before we discovered "WHERE he was coming from")

Jordan's last Post was on 06-08-2008. After being thoroughly repudiated and rebuked (see Posts), he hadn't posted anything for approximately 10 months, until his newest "foray" (QUESTIONS - ALWAYS LOADED QUESTIONS! Read his clever "questions" carefully!) onto the Forum {Jordan's Thread: "Alexandrian Texts"}.

Unless this young man has repented and turned from his deceitful ways (which he hasn't publicly made known here), then he is just "baiting" whoever he can into another fruitless and unproductive debate.

Look at his "QUESTION": IF on the face of his "question" - "Jordan" CANNOT SEE that REMOVING God's WORDS from the Scriptures is WRONG, who amongst us here on the Forum are going to convince him otherwise? Hmmm? This kind of "discernment" is taught by the Holy Spirit - NOT men; and as long as this young man is determined to "find errors" in the Holy Bible, he will never understand WHY REMOVING God's WORDS from the HOLY Scriptures is not only "WRONG", but it is EVIL!

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him. {This applies to BOYS & YOUNG MEN ALSO!}

Don't make accusations about me if you don't even know me.

[tonybones2112]

[QUOTE=George;18099]Aloha brother Tony,

Before you waste very much time with "Jordan", you should review his previous "Threads: & "Posts" to see "WHERE he is coming from" and to get "a handle" on WHAT kind of person he is. WATCH OUT for the "GOTCHA" - this young man doesn't have an honest or sincere BONE in his entire body! {Check out his website - It's all about JORDAN!}

Brother, you "can bet your bottom dollar" that Jordan already knows about Origen, and is just going to "play along" or "string you along" (and others) until he sees the right moment to "pounce" and display his cunning craftiness for all to see (once again).

You're a good soldier for Christ brother George. Your desire that all come to the knowledge of the truth is sincere and like all of us, we want everyone to be aware of the truth. I thank you for this message.

I've dealt with many teens, I used to be one. If you judge me by my taste in cars and my love for Gibson and Fender guitars, I'm still 22. when I got my Swordsearcher in the mail, I was like a kid on Xmas morning and spent 4 somewhat sleepless days learning it, so much so that I forgot the difference between Origen and Eusebius I just don't see Jordan as a knowing agent of Satan and Zondervan Press is all. He's a young man and I know it takes patience. My Dad used to say, don't beat a dog for being a dog. I don't think you can scourge a teen for being a teen and having questions. You probably don't know this but I held the fort against a gentleman goes by the ID of Robycop3 in all the anti-KJV forums. Tim knows Roby. I ain't had the pleasure of meeting Ransom yet, I hear he is worse than Roby. He should make me a good breakfast too. You have to boil tough meat in water first before you fry it. Sometimes teens seek self esteem in taking on their elders. When I was Jordan's age and before, I taught guerrilla war to men twice my age and sometimes three times. I'm a bit hard to sneak up on. Last time I got ambushed was when I lost everything I owned and worked for in my life in an estate theft BY the state, a judge, and 2 lawyers because I believed in truth, justice, and the American Way. I assure you that will never happen again. One of the lawyers was supposed to have been working for ME.

If Jordan has any questions and wants to direct them to me, I'll be glad to answer them to the best of my ability. None of us are born Christians, God don't have any grandchildren. None of us are born with the knowledge of how to get through day to day life encoded in our DNA. We learn to look both ways crossing a street if we have been run over a few times. Jordan wants to express himself like 4 billion others on the web. His site is a lot tamer than many MYSPACE sites I have seen. If a person comes to this forum and baits people for a laugh, that's their deficit, not the forum's. If I lose through patience I'd rather do that than win with a steamroller, because I haven't really won anything. I'd rather err on the side of long-suffering.

So Jordan, what would you like to talk about dude?

Grace and peace

Tony

[George]

Aloha brother Tony,

It looks to me that you and I have much in common (when it comes to the government, financial status, etc.) but, there is one area where I will disagree (to some extent) with you and brother Tim and that is in continuing to "coddle" those "Christians" ("err on the side of long-suffering") who are determined to correct, disparage, criticize, demean, denigrate and tear down God's Holy word.

I refuse to "engage" these kind of "Christians" (whether 18 or 88) in "a meaningful dialogue", because it is a complete waste of time. I have 7 (out of 17) grandchildren that are "Jordan's" age (or older). My wife and I have raised seven children of our own, and I have observed how Humanistic psychiatry/psychology has crept into "Christian" homes and destroyed any meaningful Biblical discipline/correction to the point where young men and women are treated as "children" into their twenties!

We have two young men on the Forum (there may be more) - Paladin54 & Cody1611 who are close to "Jordan's" age and who, either one of them would make a father (or grandfather ) proud. There is NO EXCUSING "Jordan's" behavior (because he is young). Guile, deceit, cunning, and craftiness are the product of a deceitful heart, and I have found that the "soft approach" (psychiatry/psychology) not only DOES NOT WORK, but generally speaking it only makes things WORSE!

Paul said:

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

But on the other hand he also said to: "rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" [Titus 1:13]

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

And again he stated:

"These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee." [Titus 2:15]

In reference to sinning elders (i.e. pastors) he commanded:

"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." [1 Timothy 5:20]

Is there a "contradiction" in our Bible? Of course NOT! Then what is going on? It's called having "spiritual discernment" - there are times (and people) where we are to be gentle, patient, etc. and there are other times (and people) where we are to draw the Sword of the Spirit and have at it.

Generally speaking, when I first encounter "Christians" on the Forum or elsewhere out in the world, I try to be gentle and patient (as I did with "Jordan" when he first showed up on the Forum - check out Jordan's Thread "Some People Should Realize" and my comments on Post #3).

But there comes a time when "gentleness" and "patience" is no longer called for, i.e. when there is a concerted and determined effort on the part of a "Christian" to continue correcting the word of God; or worse yet, where they will attack it or tear it down; or when they continue to insist on justifying some obvious wrongdoing (or sin) on their part (like recommending hereticks). And when that time arrives, 2 Timothy 2:23-26 no longer applies (or it will lead to compromise).

When "Christians" reach the point described above it's time for:

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

That time is HERE! That time is NOW! Coddling "False Teachers" (no matter what age) is unscriptural. "Tough love" (reproving & rebuking) is both appropriate and Biblical, we just have to know when and where (and to whom) to do it, and again I say - that takes "spiritual discernment".

When we are out on the street (in amongst "them" - so to speak) in their territory, and in their "home" (so to speak); we have to take a whole lot of abuse. However, when someone joins this Forum (Our Territory - Our "Home", so to speak) that's a whole different story! They are joining an "AV1611 Bible Forum"; and if they can't have the courtesy to respect the fact that we believe The Bible (A BOOK that we can hold in our hands); if they show disrespect to God's Holy words or to brethren on the Forum; if they promote heresy and false doctrine (or hereticks & false teachers); and if they are disingenuous, cunning, crafty, and demonstrate no genuine interest in the truth; I for one will NOT "forbear" and tolerate their inconsiderate, tactless, thoughtless, and sometimes blasphemous "attitude" (no matter what age).

Paladin54 and Cody1611 are good examples of young Christian men; if James & John (the sons of Zebedee) could faithfully follow the Saviour at a very young age - there is NO EXCUSE for a young "Christian" joining a Bible believing Forum and through subterfuge and deceit "pretend" to be something (or someone) he is not. Especially when he claims that our Holy Bible has errors in it!

There is a time to be patient and gentle, and there is a time to reprove and rebuke, it's NOT ALL patience and gentleness - "no matter what". There are any where's from 2 to 5 times amount of "guests" on the Forum as there are "members"; we cannot let the "gainsayers" get away with their attacks and false doctrines without challenging them and contending for our faith. Otherwise, there will be no edification - only chaos and anarchy!

You said: "I'd rather err on the side of long-suffering." I would rather not err at all! I would rather exercise "spiritual discernment" and follow Paul's example and be kind, patient, and gentle, to those people that the Scriptures indicate should be treated that way; and I shall continue to preach, teach, and warn "Christians", but also (when the Scriptures indicate the need) I will continue to "admonish" (and if that doesn't work); then "reprove" (and if that doesn't work); and at last resort "rebuke" (if necessary).

There are "Christians" that we should AVOID [Romans 16:17]; there are "Christians" that we should SHUN [1 Corinthians 11-13]; and their are "Christian" hereticks and "false teachers" that we should REJECT [Titus 3:10]!

We are living in perilous times, when the "truth" is being questioned and attacked both "within" and without of the churches. I see no reason why we should "tolerate" this blasphemy on this Forum.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Jordan

Can someone show/tell me why these manuscripts are wrong? I know they remove verses and stuff, but I'm just searching for some info here.

Jordan, I am sure this thread will run a long time, but I'm going to start the ball rolling.

The Alexandrian texts comprise 45 manuscripts, alleged to be the "best text" because they are alleged to be "earliest". If truly they are earlier, their own supporters recognize that they have survived this long because they were never used.

The "oldest and best", Vaticanus, had as many as 8 corrections of one verse where scribes have marked through a given verse. Also, there is a blank spot that by letter count would match exactly the last twelve verses of the ending of the book of Mark. Rather than Mark 16:9-20 being an "addition", it was OMITTED. The Majority Text that the KJV represents is over 5000 manuscripts in Greek from 3 continents, the Alexandrian is 45 manuscripts all localized within the area of Egypt and traced to ONE AUTHOR, Origen.

The Alexandrian Text was in existence prior to Westcott and Hort and are a family of manuscripts the Protestant Reformers rejected by and large. The KJV translators rejected them utterly, as the Alexandrian also is entirely 100 percent Roman Catholic in nature.

There was at one time a site you could read Scrivener's "Codex B(Vaticanus) and It's Allies") describing the corrupt nature of the Alexandrian manuscripts.

This is a start, as I said, this thread I think will go on for quite a while.

Grace and peace

Tony

[Jordan]

So then they are definitely corrupted?

[bibleprotector]

The "oldest and best", Vaticanus, had as many as 8 corrections of one verse where scribes have marked through a given verse.

If this is not corrupt, what is?

[Fredoheaven]

Originally Posted by Jordan

Can someone show/tell me why these manuscripts are wrong? I know they remove verses and stuff, but I'm just searching for some info here.

Hi, I'm a new here and have read some of your post examined by sir George. Well, I'm just wondering / bothered why you post this question that you have really answered. If so, the changing (adding, removing, altering etc.) can be found in the verses such as...ah no more I know, you know them already more than I do. But anyway, here what our Lord Jesus Christ had said against the Sadduces in His time. In Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.. Here is what I learned corcerning this statement of our Lord. We ERR because of the the ff:

1. We do not Searched the Scriptures. To searched simply means we are to look over carefully. This is what the Berean did in Acts 17:11 "...they received the word with all readiness of mind, and search the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." With all their seaching they received the pure words of God of what Paul and Silas have preached. Today we have the preserved, pure words of God in the KJV and we need to searched it and believe like those Bereans. The Bible says in v.12 " Therefore, many of them believed;also of honorable women who were Greeks, and of the men, not a few". I'll still find another spiritual application of this verse telling us that we may belong to the "men, not a few". Again in John 5:39 our Lord insisted that we need to searched the scriptures.

2. We do not Study the Scriptures. Studying involves the rightly dividing the Word( 2 Timothy 2:15). Of course, anyone dividing the word needs the power of God. We need the Holy Spirit to teach us. It seems to me that it is really disgracefull that some rely informations only in the web for their study and not actually studying, praying earnestly in the Spirit, which results only to what Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". Of course, I am not against the internet based information but what I am against is that it becomes above the word of God. Mens opinion are not to be equated with the words of God.

3. We do not Saturate our minds with the Scriptures. This simply means we no longer fill in or memorized the Scriptures. I know this is the surest way to victory over sin, doubt and despair. In Joshua 1:8 sure we all know it the promise of God to those who will not depart and meditate and observe to do accordingly what is written therein. This is the word of God or the KJV all about.

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1 Timothy 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.


Jude 25
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