[Greektim]

I don't think Tony will be convinced with pointing out Scripture to which he already has read before. What is holding him back is his system of theology (please correct me if I am wrong, Tony). That's ok b/c my system of theology which I see rise from Scripture holds me back from abstaining from baptism. We all do this. Since he holds to a later date for the beginning of the Church, then that will affect his interpretation to those passages. So maybe it would be better to discuss the birthday of the Church. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Whew! I have not thoroughly read through this thread; but before it's shut down, is there anyone who share my view on water baptism?

The water baptism taught and practiced by Paul has a DIFFERENT mode and meaning than the water baptism taught and practiced by John the Baptist, Jesus Christ (in His earthly ministry), and the Twelve.

I'm not sure anyone replied to you, but I would refer any readers to the passage in Acts 19, when Paul came to Ephesus on his third preaching trip, he found some disciples there and asked them some very important questions...

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

We can see in the passage above how the men remarked that they knew only the baptism of John. Paul responded by CLEARLY explaining why John's baptism was different (verse 4). John's baptism looked FORWARD to the coming of Jesus. Obviously, Jesus had not yet died when John baptized people. John's was a baptism of preparation looking FORWARD to Jesus' death (see Matthew 3:3).

This shows that John's baptism cannot be the identical baptism which Jesus instructed people to receive under the gospel (Mark 16:15,16; Matthew 28:18-20). Today's symbol of BELIEVER'S baptism looks BACKWARD to Jesus' death, burial and resurrection (the Gospel) as accomplished facts. We are baptized into His death, picturing His death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12). Before we can participate in believer's baptism, we must believe in Jesus as God's Son who has been raised from the dead (Rom. 10:9,10; Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36-38).

One of my favorite passages of believer's baptism is right here in Acts chapter 8, regarding the Ethiopian eunuch...

29 "Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

So thanks to our beloved King James Bible, there is the clear doctrine on believer's baptism, like a diamond in the dust. I like the way verse 37 demonstrates the simple plan for this important ordinance which is reserved for all believers. This is why I was baptized after I was saved, even though I was not baptized in a Baptist church, and I was actually baptized long before I ever became a Baptist.

[Fredoheaven]

So thanks to our beloved King James Bible, there is the clear doctrine on believer's baptism, like a diamond in the dust. I like the way verse 37 demonstrates the simple plan for this important ordinance which is reserved for all believers. This is why I was baptized after I was saved, even though I was not baptized in a Baptist church, and I was actually baptized long before I ever became a Baptist.

Bro. Parrish thanks for your excellent study about waters baptism. I do agree with you. Just asking, when did you become a Baptist? or could you tell us about yourself?


To God be the Glory!!!

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by chette777

"would like to finish and get SCRIPTURE as to why the water baptism of Leviticus 8 is not related to John's baptism of repentance,"

Le 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.

This seems to be the verse that Tbones is referencing to. the whole context of Lev 8 is Moses preparing Arron and his sons for their priestly duties.

I am not sure how Moses washed them, did he fully immerse them or did he sprinkle them? did he give them a sponge bath? I guess we would have to trust it was a bath to make them physically clean.

the sacrifice later would be that which would make them spiritually clean for the moment of their duties.

here is John's Baptism.

Mt 3:1-6 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:

Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

from this verse it seems those getting baptized. And but it seems it went along with confessing their sins and repentance is mentioned. It would seem baptism of John was something the people (not Levite priests) were doing as a token of their repentance from their confessed sin.

The bath Moses gave them was not for remission of sins but physical cleansing. the sacrifice was for the remission and forgiveness of sin.

John also Preached that baptism was for repentance for the remission of sins. So if a person got baptized it was so they could receive the remission of their sins. I really don't see any similarity to the bath Moses Gave Arron and his sons in Lev 8.

the law required Jews to bring a sacrifice. but the person that the animal was sacrificed for was not told to take a bath. the bath that Moses gave was for the Levite priests only not for the whole congregation.

John was giving them remission with no sacrifice which is different from the Law which required the sacrifice of an animal.

There are many differences between the bath of Lev 8 and John's baptism. but there are no similarities.

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

You're missing the similitudes entirely and the whole concept of like figures and types, Chette, you're looking at everything I am saying and you are saying through Baptist glasses, and not the clear view of the Scriptures, the like figures of the entire book of Hebrews and what Peter meant in I Peter 3:19-21. Through Baptist glasses you cannot see the reason and the why of Aaron and his sons being first washed clean with water and what the water typified, and then Aaron and his sons being sanctified by the second step, the oil, a type of the Holy Spirit. Why did Peter say the like figure whereunto even baptism does now save us, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh(in either Levitical consecration or "believers baptism"). The reason I fellowship with IFBs are they are the only ones, besides some of my Grace brethren, who stands on the Scriptures as I do, who have the knowledge you people have, who will put up the same fight I will for the truth of the gospel of Christ and then when the types and figures and "ensamples" cross the denominational/traditional misapplication of an OT Law that you have inserted into the pericardial sac right next to your heart, everyone goes blind, and gets their feelings hurt when you try and discuss it. "Well, that is NOT what you say..." "Why?" "Well...just becasue it's NOT..."

We can sit here and run the sinless nature and innocence of Jesus Christ back into GENESIS THREE, where innocent animals were killed(crucified without purpose or REASON) to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve(a type of their sins before God), the bloody skins hiding their nakedness before God as the BLOOD OF CHRIST, which was typified in the OT "washings" by water, just as the Blood of Christ covers your and my sins we jump up in an almost Jimmy Swaggartian fury and shout, amen! The similitudes and like figures! "Nothing But The Blood Of Jeeeeeeeesus..." But when those figures and types touch upon a denominational tradition we go out to the dump, pull the great curtain that the Finger of God rent in twain between the Holy Place in the temple and our sould, and stitch it back together and let it fall, thundering like an iron curtain, not between two Germanys, but between Malachi and Matthew.

Do you deny Aaron and his sons the right to have John's baptism of repentance, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but their answer of a good conscience before God so that they could be washed free of their sins in God's eyes before they were clean enough to have the oil of sanctification(a type of the Holy Ghost)poured out on them? Because right there it is according to Isaiah 28. I had a Church of Christ "elder" in the church I went to as a child, who was my Sunday school teacher, tell me after a "debate" with another elder, "I'm sorry I ever showed you Isaiah 28..." and he was not smiling when he said it. Right there in Leviticus 8 is John's baptism of repentance as a type of the washing of the blood of Christ for sins. The KJV sits on a table and is the word of God whether Doug Kutilek says it is or not. John's baptism of repentance is found in Leviticus 8 no matter how hard we want to deny, it's there anyway no matter what we say, and if we throw out one similitude then they all have to be thrown out and we are left sitting like Campbellites with no connection between the OT and Christ's earthly ministry to Israel.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

How many baptisms Chette? There is a circumcision made without hands, in Titus 3:5 I have found a baptism not made with hands. That baptism is also found in:

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

We aren't going to be like Eve in Genesis 3 and insert "water" into every place the word "baptism" occurs, are we? There is another baptism found in I Corinthians 10:

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

So here I am with the circumcision made not with hands and also a baptism made not with hands, the washing of regeneration, but I have to undergo another baptism??? I thought there was only one, according to Paul in Eph. 4 above? There isn't?!?! There's "following the Lord in Believer's Baptism as a public testimony..."

Yeah right. One baptism plus one baptism equals two baptisms and we are going to have to try and figure this mystery out:

One Lord, plus another Lord, who is he?
One faith, plus another faith, what is it ?
One baptism, plus "following the Lord in Believer's Baptism as a public testimony..."
One God plus another God, who is he?
One Father, plus another one, who is he?

Ex 19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.

Nu 8:21 And the Levites were purified, and they washed their clothes; and Aaron offered them as an offering before the LORD; and Aaron made an atonement for them to cleanse them.

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Brother Chette, do you think there is a possibility that there just might be a connection between John the Baptist, who was a LEVITE, his baptism of repentance to ISRAEL to consecrate them as a kingdom of priests, and the OT Law of first consecration of a LEVITE, or have you stitched the curtain up and placed it between Malachi and Matthew also?

1. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
2. Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
3. Ho 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.
4. 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Heb. 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Why are Bible types, figures and similitudes, applicable in some precepts and not all of them? Well, if Bible types and like figures only apply in some areas but not all of them, someone loan me a penknife, I got 4 verses to cut out.

Grace and peace to you my friend and brother.

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Greektim

I don't think Tony will be convinced with pointing out Scripture to which he already has read before. What is holding him back is his system of theology (please correct me if I am wrong, Tony). That's ok b/c my system of theology which I see rise from Scripture holds me back from abstaining from baptism. We all do this. Since he holds to a later date for the beginning of the Church, then that will affect his interpretation to those passages. So maybe it would be better to discuss the birthday of the Church. Just a thought.

Tim, I hold the beginning of the Church at Calvary, as manifest as an organism at Acts 2, and then we, those in the Acts Chapter 29 Church of But Now, as grafted in by the apostle Paul against the law of nature. Where have I and what is this "late date" I never set the Church as beginning at? Also brother, my "system" of theology is found in Isaiah 28 and I can see those passages hold no one back.

I have some questions for you or anyone who wishes to repsond, since this is a discussion between brothers, questions regarding Eph. 4. Please, if you would, answer questions 1, 2, 4, and 5, IFB system of theology has already answered question 3 in that there are two baptisms, making me out of the will of God, as Dr. Curtis Hudson reminded me once personally:

Eph. 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1. One Lord, plus another Lord, who is he?
2. One faith, plus another one, what is it?
3. One baptism, plus following the Lord in Believer's Baptism as a personal testimony.
4. One God, plus another one, who is he?
5. One Father, plus another one, who is he?

The principle of one must follow the principle for all, otherwise we are wresting the Scriptures.

Grace and peace brother.

Tony

For anyone who is interested in the history of Bullingerism and other teachings,
I submit a few notes from David E. Walker and his book on
THE BIBLE BELIEVER'S GUIDE TO DISPENSATIONALISM...

"I would say it is the closest thing to a DEFINITIVE work on
Dispensationalism as I have ever read." - Dr. Peter S. Ruckman


HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM...

Ruckman outlines the teachings of
hyper-dispensationalism as follows:

1. There is a period of time called “THE GRACE OF GOD” which began in Acts 9 (Stam, Baker, Moore, Watkins) or in Acts 18 (O’Hare and others) or in Acts 28 (Bullinger) . . .

2. Water baptism is not for “THIS AGE” since “THIS AGE” began in Acts 9 or Acts 13 or Acts 18 or Acts 28.

3. Bible-believing Baptists are heretics who do not follow PAULINE teaching (1 Ti. 1:16).

4. Since Paul did not COMMAND anyone to be baptized, it is UNSCRIPTURAL.

5. Since Paul was not “SENT TO BAPTIZE,” water baptism is PRE-PAULINE (1 Cor. 1).

6. The “ONE BAPTISM” of Ephesians 4 automatically cancels water baptism.

HUNG UP TO DRY
Below are the Bible answers
to this anti-baptism (dry-cleaning) fixation...
http://www.victory-baptist.net/hyper.htm#_ftn13

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

So thanks to our beloved King James Bible, there is the clear doctrine on believer's baptism, like a diamond in the dust. I like the way verse 37 demonstrates the simple plan for this important ordinance which is reserved for all believers. This is why I was baptized after I was saved, even though I was not baptized in a Baptist church, and I was actually baptized long before I ever became a Baptist.

Originally Posted by Fredoheaven

Bro. Parrish thanks for your excellent study about waters baptism. I do agree with you. Just asking, when did you become a Baptist? or could you tell us about yourself?

Well there's not much to tell brother, and I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'll keep it brief. I was actually saved about 30 years ago while I was attending a secular college. I was not saved in a church, and I was not raised in a church, however I did have a little Catholic influence as a child since my mother was raised Catholic. However my immediate family was not religious and my weekends as a youngster were spent mostly with my family on beach. Thankfully, I was blessed with a father and mother who loved each other very much and I can honestly say we were closer than many church-going families I have seen over the years.

As a babe in Christ, I was baptized along with one of my college buddies and his wife who were Methodists (!). We actually had to go to another church to get baptized because there was no baptistry at their church! Years later after graduating I moved away and began praying for God to lead me to a Bible-believing church. I was highly ignoarant of the scriptures, but I knew I was saved and I had a tremendous thirst for a knowledge of the Bible. At this time I was visiting different churches, carrying a "Living Bible" and speaking with many diverse denominations, and even cults like the JW's and Mormons (!). One day, someone knocked on MY door and invited me to an Independent Baptist Church with an auditorium that seated about 1,100. I loved it, plain preaching, not too big, lots of soul winning and not too fancy (they had wooden pews without padding until the early 90's, lol). Eventually I enrolled myself in Bible courses there and after a few hundred hours of personal study I ended up teaching adult Sunday School for around 10 years. It's been a great journey.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

I'm not sure anyone replied to you, but I would refer any readers to the passage in Acts 19, when Paul came to Ephesus on his third preaching trip, he found some disciples there and asked them some very important questions...

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

We can see in the passage above how the men remarked that they knew only the baptism of John. Paul responded by CLEARLY explaining why John's baptism was different (verse 4). John's baptism looked FORWARD to the coming of Jesus. Obviously, Jesus had not yet died when John baptized people. John's was a baptism of preparation looking FORWARD to Jesus' death (see Matthew 3:3).

This shows that John's baptism cannot be the identical baptism which Jesus instructed people to receive under the gospel (Mark 16:15,16; Matthew 28:18-20). Today's symbol of BELIEVER'S baptism looks BACKWARD to Jesus' death, burial and resurrection (the Gospel) as accomplished facts. We are baptized into His death, picturing His death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12). Before we can participate in believer's baptism, we must believe in Jesus as God's Son who has been raised from the dead (Rom. 10:9,10; Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36-38).

One of my favorite passages of believer's baptism is right here in Acts chapter 8, regarding the Ethiopian eunuch...

29 "Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

So thanks to our beloved King James Bible, there is the clear doctrine on believer's baptism, like a diamond in the dust. I like the way verse 37 demonstrates the simple plan for this important ordinance which is reserved for all believers. This is why I was baptized after I was saved, even though I was not baptized in a Baptist church, and I was actually baptized long before I ever became a Baptist.

Let's look backward brother Parrish, let's look backward on dead works and see if we are fit for the kingdom of God:

Lu 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

I don't have to "look back" on anything, my corrupt Adamic nature and the fact a Perfect and sinless Man, God in the flesh, had to die for my salvation is right in front of my eyes 24 hours a day. I don't "look back" at anything, I'm looking at it in the mirror.

I say this without offense, but the IFB "system" as brother GreekTim calls it makes th same mistake the Campbellite Church of Christ makes, and that is making the book of Acts 1-28 as a primer for present day church practice, when Paul is healing the sick and shaking off serpents as late as Acts 28.

Is anyone going to deny those two incidents, and is anyone going to say those two signs of an apostle are operative for today?

Neither is baptism in water, as it ceased at Acts 28.

Ac 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Here are the points you are missing with me:

1. I have never said water baptism was NOT operative in the book of Acts.
2. I have never said water baptism was operative for Zeus/Jupiter worshipping Gentiles who convert to Christ those who are our "types" and "like figures" TODAY.

Here is my point:

Jewish water baptism is first found in Leviticus 8 as a consecration of a Levite priest, the first step being washing, then pouring out of oil. This was the training for Israel to lead the world back to God, by Israel's EXALTATION would the Gentiles be blessed, and that God PROMISED to make them into a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS. Thus John, a Levite, came baptizing with WATER to the WHOLE nation of Israel, and as a Levite consercrated Jesus Christ as their HIGH PRIEST, the second step being sanctification with oil, the Holy Spirit. When John was killed Jesus and the apostles carried on this consecration, Jesus never baptized anybody. Why?

His job was as sanctifier, not consecrator.

Le 21:10 And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;

Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

So John came as Consecrator, Christ came as Sanctifier. He resurrected and gave the signs of an apostle to apostles to then dispense to Jews and Gentile proselytes to Judaism

My point: Why do I call water baptism "Jewish" water baptism? Because there is no Scriptural record of any Gentile outside the commonwealth of Israel being baptized in water. everyone baptized in water in the Bible are unbelieving Jews who then believed and Gentile prosylytes.

That includes me and BTW, you too brother Parrish, and everyone reading this.

Understand the Scriptural position on this topic a little better now, brother?

The CoC justify their downright heresy of baptismal regeneration by pointing to the Philippian jailor of Acts 16, never once thinking that the Philippian jailor, was a Gentile proselyte to Judaism ,since native Jews from Israel would scarcely be found in charge of a ROMAN jail. With different motive(to uphold a denominational tradition) the entire IFB Movement turn to Acts 18 and 19 to prove church practice for today, when the signs of an apostle(Jewish water baptism being one) are still in effect and operative.

I thank you in the Lord for pointing out the church at Ephasus, as it proves my point above:

Acts 18:18 And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.
19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

In Acts 19 we find Jewish converts to the kingdom of heaven gospel being given doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness by Paul. Did Paul baptize them in water? Yes! Paul had to. Water baptism with tongues, signs, wonders, and healing following were a sign of an apostle according to Mark 16, Paul was an apostle.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

Ac 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Ac 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Zeus worshipping Gentiles or Jews, brother? John certainly baptized no Gentiles.

Cornelius of Acts 10? I need cite no Scripture, as Cornelius was a Gentile convert to Judaism and had to be baptised in water.

Let's delve into my point further, Corinth:

I Cor. 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

I Cor. 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

I Cor. 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Careful Berean study, daily study, of the Scriptures reveal the signs of an apostle, water baptism included, lost effectiveness and practice at the end of Acts 28:

Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I don't require a "sign", the unbelieving nation of Israel does. I'm living in Acts Chapter 29, and so are you brother Parrish, so is Greek tim and Chette, and so is everyone, lost and saved, reading this right now. You say, heresy! there is no Acts 29!

Yes there is.

Look in the mirror.

Times Past: Genesis-Acts 28
But Now: Romans-Philemon
Ages To Come: Hebrews-Revelation

Brother Parrish, I'm annoying, but at least I am honestly consistent with you, you are not debating a Campbellite, you are discussing doctrine with a brother in Christ who is an ex-Campbellite. I hope at this point to all of you that I have been decent and in order, and that the discussion will remain so for its duration.

Grace and peace to all

Tony

[Greektim]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Tim, I hold the beginning of the Church at Calvary, as manifest as an organism at Acts 2, and then we, those in the Acts Chapter 29 Church of But Now, as grafted in by the apostle Paul against the law of nature. Where have I and what is this "late date" I never set the Church as beginning at? Also brother, my "system" of theology is found in Isaiah 28 and I can see those passages hold no one back.

I have some questions for you or anyone who wishes to repsond, since this is a discussion between brothers, questions regarding Eph. 4. Please, if you would, answer questions 1, 2, 4, and 5, IFB system of theology has already answered question 3 in that there are two baptisms, making me out of the will of God, as Dr. Curtis Hudson reminded me once personally:

Eph. 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1. One Lord, plus another Lord, who is he?
2. One faith, plus another one, what is it?
3. One baptism, plus following the Lord in Believer's Baptism as a personal testimony.
4. One God, plus another one, who is he?
5. One Father, plus another one, who is he?

The principle of one must follow the principle for all, otherwise we are wresting the Scriptures.

Grace and peace brother.

Tony

Apologies Tony for misunderstanding your position. That happens from time to time when our labels do not adequately and fully express the meaning of the position. I am still trying to figure out what to call myself (refined/strict Dispensationalist is the best I got). You do seem to have Ultra-Dispensationalism leanings. But there could be worse things in life (i.e. Progressive Dispensationalism or worse...Covenant Theology ).

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Greektim

Apologies Tony for misunderstanding your position. That happens from time to time when our labels do not adequately and fully express the meaning of the position. I am still trying to figure out what to call myself (refined/strict Dispensationalist is the best I got). You do seem to have Ultra-Dispensationalism leanings. But there could be worse things in life (i.e. Progressive Dispensationalism or worse...Covenant Theology ).

No apologies necessary brother. The closest to my belief you can find among the Grace Movement, besides Pastor Richard Jordan, is the website by Ben Webb. Ben defines "Berean Dispensationalists", "Pauline Dispensationalists", "Early", "Mid" and "Late" Acts Dispensationalists, and no kidding, but I think the Grace Movement has a definition for what they call "ultra" and "hyper", too! I guess it's like a John Bircher saying, there are people out there to the right of us.

I don't know right now the exact delineations Ben puts on the different categories mentioned above, I'd rather study my Bible and respond from my own heart than parrot what's on this website or that so I have not studied his website that deeply. But I digress: Ben defines a "pauline" dispensationalist and my own system might be different from his. An example is Ben believes Paul was the first member of the Body Of Christ. I believe the Body of Christ was present but not yet manifest and identified and had, as Paul said, "above 511" members: The 11 apostles and those over 500 believers who saw Christ resurrected.

Ben's website if you wish to visit and read is an old one but still active, the link to the new website is on this one. I don't care for the new one, it's like a blog and I don't care for the blog matrix for websites.

http://www.geocities.com/benwebb.geo/

Ben also has a wide variety of links and is also opposed to Covenant Theology and you will also learn a great deal about the Unitarian/Universalist attempts to penetrate and leaven the Grace Movement. The crew I run with are old-school fundamentalists like the majority of people in this forum, I just don;t see water baptism as operative for the Church today, and the reason it is a thread in this forum. Ben is also a staunch defender of the KJV also. I first met and became affiliated with the Grace Movement through the teachings of Pastor Richard Jordan who was fired from the Bereans of Stam for standing for the KJV as the only Bible to use. There is a rumor that Richard has taught kenosis, though I am yet to see and hear any evidence, though there are other Grace believers who do subscribe to this false doctrine.

Grace and peace Tim, I welcome you to the forum and to the thread. This is a very heated topic for both IFBs and Grace Believers, I am among my family here however, as far as I am concerned, and have no fish to fry, no bones to pick. More than bamboo shoots under my nails, I responded to this thread as I felt lead to answer every man and did not wish to appear snobbish. As you can see, it is lively

Tony