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  #11  
Old 03-02-2008, 07:12 AM
ploughboy
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He knows who will die in a state of rejection of Him and His salvation
Quote:
those are the ones I believe He hates
So when is it, that God changes from loving the sinner to hating him? The minute he enters hell or a few days before?


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  #12  
Old 03-02-2008, 07:29 AM
jerry
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Perhaps you could do a Bible search for all the verses related to this theme, and see what conclusion you can reach.

Proverbs 6:16-19 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

It doesn't just say He hates the sin, but the sinner.

Luke 13:24-28 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is referring to those STILL lost when Jesus judges them.

Proverbs 10:29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Proverbs 21:15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

Not covered with the righteousness of Christ, but by their own sin.

Micah 2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand.

Love in the Bible is defined as obeying God's commandments and actively doing good towards someone else. Eg. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 and:

1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Perhaps God's hatred is an active withholding of blessing of the wicked. In Hell they certainly will not see any good. It is not that God will do evil to them - but He will withhold good to them. Whereas when we hate someone, it means we are sinning against them - treating them contrary to God's commands - ie. like lying to them when we are supposed to be telling them the truth - see:

Proverbs 26:28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.
  #13  
Old 03-02-2008, 03:23 PM
ploughboy
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Default The Cross

The Cross proves that God loves all sinners.

Ploughboy
  #14  
Old 03-02-2008, 04:34 PM
jerry
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Again, it is not one of these versus the other. The Bible teaches both. How do you reconcile that? You can't do it by overlooking one.
  #15  
Old 03-02-2008, 06:31 PM
ploughboy
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Thumbs up God Loves All Sinners

I do not have to reconcile both. Jesus has at the cross. I think it is called MERCY!!! At the Cross God loves ALL sinners. Calvin could not figure it out either.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."Romans 5:8




Ploughboy
  #16  
Old 03-02-2008, 06:40 PM
jerry
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The cross was planned BEFORE God created this world, yet God still declared that He hates workers of iniquity - so it is not either/or.

Actually, what you are doing is overlooking Scripture to fit your theory - and that is not how we are to study the Bible. We are to compare spiritual things with spiritual, precept upon precept, line upon line. We are to rightly divide the Word of God - and if our conclusions omit or contradict other passages, then we have wrongly divided it, not rightly divided it.
  #17  
Old 03-02-2008, 10:08 PM
lei-kjvonly
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I agree with Jerry. Ploughboy you have to understand that this is not one way or the other. They both go hand in hand. Romans 1 clearly talks about how God rejected those that literally did not like to retain God in their thoughts. He gave them over to a reprobate mind. Why? Because they rejected Him first.

Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

As you notice, there have been plenty of verses that some of us have been able to show you that state how God not only hates the iniquity but the worker of it. As Jerry said earlier God hates those who know what is right but choose to do otherwise. In other words someone who scorns the Truth and disregards it, living his life the way he wants to. Here is a good example.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
  #18  
Old 03-03-2008, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ploughboy View Post
The Cross proves that God loves all sinners.

Ploughboy
...and DEATH (Gen 3) HELL (Rev. 21:8) proves that God hates ALL SINNERS.
  #19  
Old 03-03-2008, 03:59 AM
ploughboy
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Default Sinners hate God

No, it (hell) proves Sinners hate God.

Ploughboy
  #20  
Old 03-03-2008, 08:07 AM
eagle777
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Malachi 2:16 says,

“For the LORD God of Israel says that He hates divorce,”

and yet He was divorced. Jer. 3:6 & 8,

“The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king,……I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.”

And in Malachi 1:2-3,

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.”

The answer to your question is unequivocally yes! The evidence is over whelming. How then can you justify the fact that the Lord tells us to love our enemies and do good to all who persecute us!

How can He instruct us to do something He is not willing to do? He tells us to do something He is not willing to do. Jesus said in Mt. 5:43-48,

“You have heard that it has been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

If he destroys untold millions in hell’s fire, as we have been taught, that makes him worse than Hitler ever thought of being. How can He tell us that He is perfect and we are to be like Him when He hates His enemies and we are supposed to love our enemies???? He is telling us to do something He is not willing to do!!!

This is the thinking of the carnal mind, which does not know Our Father and cannot understand the things of our God. Paul said in Rom. 8:6-8,

“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Again Paul said in 1 Cor. 2:9-14,

“Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

The natural man, or the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know, understand them, because they have to be spiritually discerned.

To understand how God can hate a man for what he is doing and still have mercy on him is something we have difficulty understanding. If we think that we can use our own intelligence without the assistance of the Holy Spirit illuminating our understand, we are sadly mistaken.

Jesus said in John 16:13,

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.”

How can God hate someone and tell us not to? Can you hate someone and show love to them at the same time? Well, that is exactly what God has done.


Lem. 3:22-23,

“It because of the LORD’S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.”

Psalm 78, 35-39 says,

“And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues. For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant. But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yes, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.”

John said in 1 John 4:7-8,

“Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.”

Notice that John said that God is love. Love is not an attribute of God. Love is the very essence of God. That is one word that describes Him.
The word translated here as love is the Greek word, “Agape”. This is the kind of love that is a result of a decision to love a person no matter what the circumstances are or what he might do. God chose to love us before creation and there is nothing we can do that will change His mind.

He may become disgusted with us or even come to hate us because of what we are doing but His predetermined love and compassion will result in Him having mercy toward us.

Paul also said in Rom. 8:38-39,

“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Jesus said in John 3:16-17,

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

His love for mankind far outweighed His anger and hatred for what we have done.

Paul said in Rom. 5:8, (KJV)

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
(NIV)

“But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ’s dying for us while we were still sinners.”

Look, Jesus is the perfect example of the nature of God. On the cross when they were crucifying Him, He has compassion on them and ask His Father to forgive them because they did not know what they were actually doing. That’s the heart of God and this is what the Father is telling us that we are to do regarding our enemies.

Heb. 10:16-17,

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”

And finally, Peter said in 2 Peter 3:9,

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
 

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