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  #111  
Old 05-30-2009, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Sister, we have a real dispensational problem here with "angels", as with water baptism. The work and purpose of angels is primarily with the nation and people of Israel, as is water baptism. No member of the Body of Christ today has to "inherit salvation", we have it already. Three places in Scripture they figure ,most prominently is Genesis, Daniel, and Revelation, all their actions for and toward Israel and the fathers of the nation of Israel. I also don't believe in "guardian angels" for that very reason. I have the Spirit of the Creator of me and angels living in my body, why do I need an angel?

As I stated before, supernatural manifestations of any type is a violation of the law of faith in the Church/Grace age. If there is to be salvation by faith alone then there is no sight. Where there is sight, then salvation, though by faith in all dispensations, must also be coupled with works. That's the reason why I put the supernatural, the "paranormal" in the trash. The UFO mystery will never be solved in the Grace Age, if they are Satanic then that will be only brought forth after the Church is Raptured out and when the faith-works program of the Messianic/Apostolic Church of Peter, James, and John is put in place again in the Tribulation.

See, that's the reason Bro. Parrish really don't like me.

I know too much.

That's all right, neither did my first pastor in a grace church for the same reason.

Grace and peace sister

Tony
Brother,

You sure quote a lot of scripture but you're not rightly dividing the Word very sharply, it's getting mangled in the process. I'll have time later to more fully respond to you and there are a lot of issues!!! but right now I want to say I find it ironic that you would quote Col 2:18 to me after another flurry of vague scripture references (that don't address any of the facts drawn from scripture I laid out in my earlier post) followed by another proclamation from you about how much you know!!! I study and only accept as truth what God has seen fit to reveal to us about angels and demons. You need to sharpen your sword, brother, you're swinging it around hacking at everything in sight but failing to make any clean cuts. That said, you are my brother in the Lord and I value knowing you. I just have to tell it like I see it.

Your sister in the Lord,
Jennifer
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  #112  
Old 05-30-2009, 04:11 PM
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This is a very disturbing topic for some. Nevertheless, I believe there are some very important issues here for Christians to discuss. I have studied this topic on and off for the last ten years or so and have become fairly settled in my view of these matters.

First off let me say, since most of this borders on the occult, we need to tread carefully. Occult means hidden. And I believe these things are hidden for a reason. God explicitly condemns and prohibits occultism throughout the Scriptures. A Christian has no need of "intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head"(Colossians 2:18).

As Christians we can get all our answers directly from God and his Word because of Christ our head "In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge"(Colossians 2:18). That being said, God's Word is not at all silent on these issues. Christ dealt head on with the forces of darkness in his day, casting out devils and healing people of evil afflictions. The Gospels are filled with information about these confrontations.

Now some have offered the explanation that the great deal of occult activity during our Lord's day was due to his presence. In other words, much of the satanic realm had gathered for his incarnation to put up a fight. I find that explanation sorely lacking. I don't find the attitude of the legion being that of a viscous mob, but rather of a cowering crew:

"And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine"(Matthew 8:29)

These devils were quite aware of the INFINITE power of The Son of God and they were trembling in fear I believe. So it is my opinion that far from wanting to be near Him, these devils would have liked to be as far from him as they possibly could get. But there was a man in that graveyard whom Jesus Christ came to set free. And no matter how many devils were in that man they could not keep him from falling at the feet of the Son of God:

"1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit"(Mark 5)

Men are drawn to Jesus but devils fear him. For that reason I do not buy the argument that the minions of hell were gathered in Israel. Those devils were there because Israel had DISOBEYED the Lord. First of all, they never completely removed the satanic Canaanite influence on that land because they never completely destroyed them and all of their satanic traditions and rituals. Secondly, Israel had begun to practice those same abominable and detestable practices for themselves just as the Lord had predicted:

"50 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, 51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; 52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: 53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it. 54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit. 55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. 56 Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them."(Numbers 33)

"1 Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hephzibah. 2 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, after the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel. 3 For he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal, and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them. 4 And he built altars in the house of the LORD, of which the LORD said, In Jerusalem will I put my name. 5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD. 6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. 7 And he set a graven image of the grove that he had made in the house, of which the LORD said to David, and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever: 8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them. 9 But they hearkened not: and Manasseh seduced them to do more evil than did the nations whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel."(2 Kings 21)

Israel learned the abominable practices of the heathen nations whom before her the Lord had cast out, and came to be in a similar state herself. We should not find it surprising at all then that devils were all over the place by Christ's day. So rather than liken the Israel of our Lord's time as a gathering of hell's minions, I see it more as like the turning on suddenly of a VERY BRIGHT LIGHT and all the critters scurrying for cover. Christ's presence REVEALED what was there all along, a satanic host bent on destroying the lives of men whom Christ loved.

Now how does this relate to the topic at hand? I believe it does because I believe we(the Church) are now in a very similar state as Israel was then. We aren't seeing all these satanic minions because THE LIGHT IS TOO DIM! And why is the light too dim? Because Christ's light isn't shining because his churches have no place for him anymore.

These things are all around us now, but we just don't see them because WE HAVE NO LIGHT! Let me give you some examples. I turned on the TV the other night and there's this girl who has "tourrettes" who is uncontrollably spewing out the filthiest language I've ever heard in a different person's voice than her own. And they call this AN ILLNESS! My friends, that's no illness, THAT'S DEVILS!

Then you have Charmed, the TV series about 3 teenage witches that's all the rage. Medium is one of the most popular shows these days! Harry Potter is an absolute occult dynasty sucking in MILLIONS OF CHILDREN. Our own military is exploring "remote viewing", which is nothing other than astral travel which is PURE WITCHCRAFT! I could go on for hours listing this stuff, but you get the point. THIS STUFF IS ALL AROUND YOU! But the Church has her eyes closed so she can't see it.

Charismatics are running around "slaying" people in the spirit and they are rolling around on the floor foaming at the mouth and barking like dogs. But fundamentalists are still arguing that those things are not for our day! The enemy is having a field day like never before. He can put this stuff right in people's faces, even in Christian's faces, AND THEY STILL CAN'T SEE WHAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR OWN EYES!

It truly saddens me that the Church has become so weak and ineffective in the face of this kind of enemy onslaught. It is my sincerest hope that in these last days the Lord might restore to the Church an understanding of her power against the enemy. A power that was so evident in the days of our Lord and of the Apostles. If the Christians only knew the authority they have in Christ over the enemy, I believe we would actually see a revival in this country.
  #113  
Old 05-30-2009, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Katie, our understanding of angels is tainted by 2000 years of Roman Catholic mythology.


Tony

Amen to that! So much paganism is wrapped up in Catholicism, but, I must admit, the Catholics are some of the most ardent believers, besides Muslims, that I have ever read about or heard of. The history of Roman Catholicism is something every Christian should investigate.
  #114  
Old 05-30-2009, 05:50 PM
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Winman, you are being called out on the Funny Furball Forums.

Apparently, we have to question you and cross examine your witness here, even though, like many other witnesses to UFO's (by definition, UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS), have no reason to lie.

But I guess you must not have seen what you saw because everybody knows UFO's don't exist.

WHAT is the FFF forum? Is it really funny furballs? Who are they, and why do people make mention of them pretty often in here?
  #115  
Old 05-30-2009, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by johnlf View Post
This is a very disturbing topic for some. Nevertheless, I believe there are some very important issues here for Christians to discuss. I have studied this topic on and off for the last ten years or so and have become fairly settled in my view of these matters.

First off let me say, since most of this borders on the occult, we need to tread carefully. Occult means hidden. And I believe these things are hidden for a reason. God explicitly condemns and prohibits occultism throughout the Scriptures. A Christian has no need of "intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head"(Colossians 2:18).

As Christians we can get all our answers directly from God and his Word because of Christ our head "In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge"(Colossians 2:18). That being said, God's Word is not at all silent on these issues. Christ dealt head on with the forces of darkness in his day, casting out devils and healing people of evil afflictions. The Gospels are filled with information about these confrontations.

Now some have offered the explanation that the great deal of occult activity during our Lord's day was due to his presence. In other words, much of the satanic realm had gathered for his incarnation to put up a fight. I find that explanation sorely lacking. I don't find the attitude of the legion being that of a viscous mob, but rather of a cowering crew:

"And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine"(Matthew 8:29)

These devils were quite aware of the INFINITE power of The Son of God and they were trembling in fear I believe. So it is my opinion that far from wanting to be near Him, these devils would have liked to be as far from him as they possibly could get. But there was a man in that graveyard whom Jesus Christ came to set free. And no matter how many devils were in that man they could not keep him from falling at the feet of the Son of God:

"1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit"(Mark 5)

Men are drawn to Jesus but devils fear him. For that reason I do not buy the argument that the minions of hell were gathered in Israel. Those devils were there because Israel had DISOBEYED the Lord. First of all, they never completely removed the satanic Canaanite influence on that land because they never completely destroyed them and all of their satanic traditions and rituals. Secondly, Israel had begun to practice those same abominable and detestable practices for themselves just as the Lord had predicted:

"50 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, 51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; 52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: 53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it. 54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit. 55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. 56 Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them."(Numbers 33)

"1 Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hephzibah. 2 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, after the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel. 3 For he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal, and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them. 4 And he built altars in the house of the LORD, of which the LORD said, In Jerusalem will I put my name. 5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD. 6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. 7 And he set a graven image of the grove that he had made in the house, of which the LORD said to David, and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever: 8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them. 9 But they hearkened not: and Manasseh seduced them to do more evil than did the nations whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel."(2 Kings 21)

Israel learned the abominable practices of the heathen nations whom before her the Lord had cast out, and came to be in a similar state herself. We should not find it surprising at all then that devils were all over the place by Christ's day. So rather than liken the Israel of our Lord's time as a gathering of hell's minions, I see it more as like the turning on suddenly of a VERY BRIGHT LIGHT and all the critters scurrying for cover. Christ's presence REVEALED what was there all along, a satanic host bent on destroying the lives of men whom Christ loved.

Now how does this relate to the topic at hand? I believe it does because I believe we(the Church) are now in a very similar state as Israel was then. We aren't seeing all these satanic minions because THE LIGHT IS TOO DIM! And why is the light too dim? Because Christ's light isn't shining because his churches have no place for him anymore.

These things are all around us now, but we just don't see them because WE HAVE NO LIGHT! Let me give you some examples. I turned on the TV the other night and there's this girl who has "tourrettes" who is uncontrollably spewing out the filthiest language I've ever heard in a different person's voice than her own. And they call this AN ILLNESS! My friends, that's no illness, THAT'S DEVILS!

Then you have Charmed, the TV series about 3 teenage witches that's all the rage. Medium is one of the most popular shows these days! Harry Potter is an absolute occult dynasty sucking in MILLIONS OF CHILDREN. Our own military is exploring "remote viewing", which is nothing other than astral travel which is PURE WITCHCRAFT! I could go on for hours listing this stuff, but you get the point. THIS STUFF IS ALL AROUND YOU! But the Church has her eyes closed so she can't see it.

Charismatics are running around "slaying" people in the spirit and they are rolling around on the floor foaming at the mouth and barking like dogs. But fundamentalists are still arguing that those things are not for our day! The enemy is having a field day like never before. He can put this stuff right in people's faces, even in Christian's faces, AND THEY STILL CAN'T SEE WHAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR OWN EYES!

It truly saddens me that the Church has become so weak and ineffective in the face of this kind of enemy onslaught. It is my sincerest hope that in these last days the Lord might restore to the Church an understanding of her power against the enemy. A power that was so evident in the days of our Lord and of the Apostles. If the Christians only knew the authority they have in Christ over the enemy, I believe we would actually see a revival in this country.
You speak the truth.
  #116  
Old 05-30-2009, 05:54 PM
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Greenbear, I have to disagree with your assessment of Tony.
Listen to him, he speaks the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
Brother,

You sure quote a lot of scripture but you're not rightly dividing the Word very sharply, it's getting mangled in the process. I'll have time later to more fully respond to you and there are a lot of issues!!! but right now I want to say I find it ironic that you would quote Col 2:18 to me after another flurry of vague scripture references (that don't address any of the facts drawn from scripture I laid out in my earlier post) followed by another proclamation from you about how much you know!!! I study and only accept as truth what God has seen fit to reveal to us about angels and demons. You need to sharpen your sword, brother, you're swinging it around hacking at everything in sight but failing to make any clean cuts. That said, you are my brother in the Lord and I value knowing you. I just have to tell it like I see it.

Your sister in the Lord,
Jennifer
  #117  
Old 05-30-2009, 06:18 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Johnlf

Thank you for that post, I think it makes a lot of sense. And you are correct, there is much interest in the occult today. I remember when I was saved as an 11 year old boy back in 1965. The most popular TV show at that time was Bewitched. It of course portrayed witches and witchcraft as harmless and even good. This show troubled me even then. And I also had difficulty with Walt Disney and his "magic kingdom". To this day Mickey Mouse is known as the "sorcerers's apprentice". The media especially has used programming and movies to introduce the occult to America. And there were the shows Star Trek, Lost in Space, and the Invaders all about alien life in space.

So, as you said, it is no wonder these things are flying around today.
  #118  
Old 05-30-2009, 07:16 PM
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Brother,

You sure quote a lot of scripture but you're not rightly dividing the Word very sharply, it's getting mangled in the process. I'll have time later to more fully respond to you and there are a lot of issues!!! but right now I want to say I find it ironic that you would quote Col 2:18 to me after another flurry of vague scripture references (that don't address any of the facts drawn from scripture I laid out in my earlier post) followed by another proclamation from you about how much you know!!! I study and only accept as truth what God has seen fit to reveal to us about angels and demons. You need to sharpen your sword, brother, you're swinging it around hacking at everything in sight but failing to make any clean cuts. That said, you are my brother in the Lord and I value knowing you. I just have to tell it like I see it.

Your sister in the Lord,
Jennifer
Sister, I'm gonna read a message by brother John, and one by Brother Tim, then I'm unsubscribing from this thread. I have a chest cold and am not in a good mood, if my wife catches this cold it's a hospital trip for her. I got a message or two in the fornicating angel thread to read, then I'm unsubscribing from it. If people don't behave themselves in the water baptism thread, same drill, which is what I think a lot of people would like to see and maybe why they are acting up. I think several people would just like it to go away. If all of you are getting edified by this stuff, by all means continue. I'm not.

I've survived this forum much longer than I thought I ever would, I've done it by the grace of God and the people here who have true Scriptural understanding. I know, much learning hath made Tony Bones mad. As the publican said, God have mercy on this poor church splitter, a Bullingerite.

I wrote a rather lengthy response here, then my PC powered by Microsoft crashed, I lost everything I wrote in WORD and here(They use Macs in Heaven, Satan uses a Gateway with VISTA). I think what I am going to conclude with here says it better than the first message and really what I wanted to get across to you:

You and brother John grab a Bible and some tracts, a lot of them. Start at the head end of High Street and walk down to almost where you hit Rt. 40, cross the street and come back, witnessing all the way. You will encounter every cult and world religion there is by the time you are done. By the time the night is over, I guarantee you won't think about Genesis 6 or UFOs for at least 5 years.

Grace and peace Sister Jennifer
Tony
  #119  
Old 05-30-2009, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by biblereader View Post
Amen to that! So much paganism is wrapped up in Catholicism, but, I must admit, the Catholics are some of the most ardent believers, besides Muslims, that I have ever read about or heard of. The history of Roman Catholicism is something every Christian should investigate.
Sister, go into a Catholic bookstore and then go into an occult bookstore, after that, try and see if you can tell any difference. I love Catholics, I hate catholiCISM.

Re 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Grace and peace to you sister

Tony
  #120  
Old 05-30-2009, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
That's the reason why I put the supernatural, the "paranormal" in the trash. The UFO mystery will never be solved in the Grace Age, if they are Satanic then that will be only brought forth after the Church is Raptured out and when the faith-works program of the Messianic/Apostolic Church of Peter, James, and John is put in place again in the Tribulation.

See, that's the reason Bro. Parrish really don't like me.

I know too much.
A few points:

1. I never said I don't like you, that is an assumption caused by the same confusion that fuels your rabid attacks here on baptism and Baptists. Or maybe one of those UFO's you saw.

2. You know less than you think you do. But we still love you.

3. I hope your chest cold gets better soon.

4. You need to get that Apple G5 and dump the PC, we already talked about that.
 

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