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  #11  
Old 04-22-2009, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Tandi View Post
Thank you all for your very helpful input. I am still studying this, but I think it is becoming clear that at various times in the history of the Ark, one or more of the three items listed in Hebrews was inside the ark. Therefore it is not an error for Hebrews to mention all three items.

I wonder if the ark that Moses made was a small box that held the tablets and that this box was put inside the larger Ark fashioned in the wilderness.

There is a multi-page challenge to the canonicity of Hebrews that I am studying, but clearing up this one matter helps put other supposed "errors" in perspective. I am trying to be a Berean and see if these things are so rather than accept these challenges without scrutiny. The KJV should be able to stand up to all challenges. If you know of any papers already written to refute challenges to canonicity, I would appreciate knowing of them.

Thank you again for your help. I may have more questions for you.

Shalom,

Tandi
Tandi, we are glad to help you any way we can. I'd be interested in seeing this attack on Hebrews if its online.

Grace and peace

Tony
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  #12  
Old 04-22-2009, 05:02 PM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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I remember listening to a sermon once, It was in reference to the KJB, it was a sermon in defence of the Book and I remember something that stuck in my head more than anything from the sermon, it was a story or should I say lesson about studying to much on the nature of translations, the textual issues, reading up on false Bibles and the errors in them and spending too much time away from the Bible studying about the Bible. The lesson was so simple yet it encouraged me so much when I heard it.
In the federal reserve, the counterfeit experts (The Pastors Father worked as one I recall) when studying on how to spot a counterfeit Bill or note, they didnt take all the counterfeit notes and study them so they could spot the difference in them, Oh No! they took the Pure, unadulterated, untampered, Bill or Note and STUDIED that note, making sure they knew every inch, every little detail of that Note to KNOW it is the real Deal so when they hold a counterfeit in their hand they KNOW it is counterfeit just by Holding it in their hand!
We need to Dive into Gods preserved word, to behold all its Glory, all its beauty, all the majesty of God's word preserved for us in the KJB and Gods spirit will let us know that anything else just wont do! For God is perfect, so is his word, so is his promise.
The lesson I learned from this was to go to the Book, more than study about the Book.

I think back to when the disciples left the Lord Jesus and "walked no more with him" How sad a day was that for them.
They left the Word, the sayings were "too hard" for them yet if they had tarried with the Lord a little longer they would have heard those wonderful words spoken by the apostle Peter when Christ asked them
"Will ye also go away?"
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

How amazing to know Brothers and Sisters we have the words of eternal life to turn to, to seek through his word whenever we want!

I don't mean by this post for anyone to stop looking for evidence on textual issues and changes and the History of it all, but to remember that the culmination of all those things we have! we
hold it in our hands, Dont neglect the Book finding out about the Book!

Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Psalms 119:141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.
  #13  
Old 04-23-2009, 07:10 AM
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tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by peopleoftheway View Post
I remember listening to a sermon once, It was in reference to the KJB, it was a sermon in defence of the Book and I remember something that stuck in my head more than anything from the sermon, it was a story or should I say lesson about studying to much on the nature of translations, the textual issues, reading up on false Bibles and the errors in them and spending too much time away from the Bible studying about the Bible. The lesson was so simple yet it encouraged me so much when I heard it.
In the federal reserve, the counterfeit experts (The Pastors Father worked as one I recall) when studying on how to spot a counterfeit Bill or note, they didnt take all the counterfeit notes and study them so they could spot the difference in them, Oh No! they took the Pure, unadulterated, untampered, Bill or Note and STUDIED that note, making sure they knew every inch, every little detail of that Note to KNOW it is the real Deal so when they hold a counterfeit in their hand they KNOW it is counterfeit just by Holding it in their hand!
We need to Dive into Gods preserved word, to behold all its Glory, all its beauty, all the majesty of God's word preserved for us in the KJB and Gods spirit will let us know that anything else just wont do! For God is perfect, so is his word, so is his promise.
The lesson I learned from this was to go to the Book, more than study about the Book.

I think back to when the disciples left the Lord Jesus and "walked no more with him" How sad a day was that for them.
They left the Word, the sayings were "too hard" for them yet if they had tarried with the Lord a little longer they would have heard those wonderful words spoken by the apostle Peter when Christ asked them
"Will ye also go away?"
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

How amazing to know Brothers and Sisters we have the words of eternal life to turn to, to seek through his word whenever we want!

I don't mean by this post for anyone to stop looking for evidence on textual issues and changes and the History of it all, but to remember that the culmination of all those things we have! we
hold it in our hands, Dont neglect the Book finding out about the Book!

Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Psalms 119:141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.
You see what I saw my friend early on with cults and false doctrines: Learn the book inside out and know it to the limits of your understanding of sound mind, and stack a preconceived notion next to it and the Scriptures always stands triumphant. But let the ignorant, ungrounded, and unlearned take a preconceived notion and try and glue it together with strips of cherry-picked Scripture, you always end up with a cult. You and I see the same thing from different perspectives, different words, same precept.

Grace and peace to you this day and all days.

Tony
  #14  
Old 04-23-2009, 08:25 AM
Tandi
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Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Tandi, we are glad to help you any way we can. I'd be interested in seeing this attack on Hebrews if its online.

Grace and peace

Tony
I would not categorize it as an "attack" on Hebrews. This is a respected friend who has questions and wonders if Hebrews belongs with the Apocrypha in its present form. He wonders if there was an original text that has been tampered with. Revelation warns that such tampering with the Scriptures would take place, and we see it in the Alexandrian texts. Could it have happened with Hebrews? I would say, "Not if God preserved His Word and kept it free from error" which is my belief.

Therefore, rather than insult the intelligence of those who see problems in the text (and he is not the only one), let us answer their challenges respectfully...and maybe win over more converts to KJV Bible preservation.

Shalom,

Tandi

Here are some of the "problems" that my friend would like to see resolved:

Factual Problems:

7:27 Apparent contradiction between Hebrews and Torah on frequency of sin offering
9:4 Apparent misplacing of altar of incense
9:4 Apparent problem with manna in the ark
9:4 Apparent problem with Aaron's rod in the ark
9:19 Apparently differs with Torah on usage of goats.
9:19 Apparently differs with Torah on presence of water.
9:19 Apparently differs with Torah on scarlet wool.
9:19 Apparently differs with Torah on hyssop.
9:19 Apparently the book was not sprinkled in Torah.
9:21 Apparently a lot of things were anointed with oil and not blood.
10:11 Apparent contradiction with Torah on frequency of sin offering.

Theological Difficulties to be resolved (partial list)

1:14 seems to imply angel of YHWH is not Yeshua
2:10 apparently claims Messiah had to be perfected
2:16 apparently denies Yeshua is angel of YHWH
5:8 apparently implies Messiah learned obedience by suffering
9:15 apparently confuses covenant with a will
9:23 apparently teaches sacrifices (plural) needed to cleanse heaven
10:14 apparently teaches perfection of the spirit

Other problems:

The Question of non-Pauline authorship
The Question of absence from earliest canonical lists
The Apostate Status of the proto-Catholic Church that canonized the book.
  #15  
Old 04-23-2009, 01:56 PM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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I will prayerfully do some reading over the weekend and try to give you answers to your friend, but I warn you in all respect, that once someone questions what is Gods word and what is not, what belongs in the Bible and what does not they get answers to the questions and then move on to a whole bunch of other questions and so the perpetual questioning of Gods word.
There are many things I see in the Bible and I don't understand them, but I DONT question them, I accept that it is not the Lords will for me to see or understand at the present time.NOT one man here on this earth knows everything about the Bible
I will never as a born again Child of God question Gods word, I will prayerfully and sincerely try By Gods Spirit too steer another Brother or Sister in the right direction, but my experience is that anyone who has "questions" that cause doubt, especially on the question "should the Book of Hebrews be in the Bible" (Quit with the Theology and start listening to God is my advice)
Your friend, who may be a genuine sincere Christian, I do not know, but he / she is on dangerous ground trying to find errors in Gods word. Hebrews is a lovely Book full of things we may not ever understand, I certainly wouldn't like to stand before Christ and answer for questioning the validity of His words
The questions your friend has are not questions from the "average Bible corrector" they are deep rooted in theology which is certainly a more dangerous kind of Bible corrector.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
  #16  
Old 04-23-2009, 03:07 PM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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Quote:
7:27 Apparent contradiction between Hebrews and Torah on frequency of sin offering
9:4 Apparent misplacing of altar of incense
9:4 Apparent problem with manna in the ark
9:4 Apparent problem with Aaron's rod in the ark
9:19 Apparently differs with Torah on usage of goats.
9:19 Apparently differs with Torah on presence of water.
9:19 Apparently differs with Torah on scarlet wool.
9:19 Apparently differs with Torah on hyssop.
9:19 Apparently the book was not sprinkled in Torah.
9:21 Apparently a lot of things were anointed with oil and not blood.
10:11 Apparent contradiction with Torah on frequency of sin offering.
I don't understand WHY your friend is trying to reconcile the Bible with the Torah, instead of looking to THE BIBLE in the 5 Books of Moses for the answers.
Especially as the Book of Hebrews contains Christ's priestly work typified by Old testament priesthood and description. Orthodox jews have crucified and denied their Messiah!
Does you friend believe the Torah to be the word of God?

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
  #17  
Old 04-23-2009, 03:40 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I agree with POTW. I myself am a simple person. It is all I can handle to study the Bible and understand it, I just don't have the time or patience to study the corrupt versions or even the history of how the KJB came to be. That said, I did read some very good books on the subject years ago that were very helpful to me.

For me, I simply believed that we have a perfect and loving God who wants us to understand and know him. And so God would preserve His words for those that diligently seek him. I really do not understand some people's concept of God. Do they think that God is hiding from us? Is his word a mystery? Is it in bits and pieces here and there, or perhaps even lost through time?

That does not seem like a loving God to me. To place you in a maze of confusion, with your very soul at risk. That seems like a cruel God to me.

And I know we are not supposed to depend upon man's thinking, for our hearts are deceitful and wicked, but even the Lord appealed to common sense at times.

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Here, Jesus appeals to a person's common sense. If your earthly father loves you and is good to you, wouldn't our heavenly Father who is Holy, loving, and merciful be even more loving and kind than your earthly father? Would your earthly father hide the words of life from you?

So, I do not understand these folks who do not believe God has preserved his word for us, especially after promising to do so many times in the Bible.

I am not the judge, but I do not believe these folks are true believers. I think they are willingly trying to rationalize God away. It is a waste of time and energy to try to convince them, as soon as you answer one objection, they will come up with another.

1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Only true believers receive the Bible as it is in truth, the word of God.
  #18  
Old 04-23-2009, 05:10 PM
Tandi
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Originally Posted by peopleoftheway View Post
I don't understand WHY your friend is trying to reconcile the Bible with the Torah, instead of looking to THE BIBLE in the 5 Books of Moses for the answers.
Especially as the Book of Hebrews contains Christ's priestly work typified by Old testament priesthood and description. Orthodox jews have crucified and denied their Messiah!
Does you friend believe the Torah to be the word of God?

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
My friend most definitely believes the Torah to be the Word of God and is very knowledgeable about it. He is a true and faithful believer for many years and a careful scholar. This is the only book of the NT he is having trouble reconciling with other Scriptures.

Shalom,

Tandi
  #19  
Old 04-23-2009, 07:12 PM
Bro. Parrish
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Well Tandi, I absolutely love the Book of Hebrews---I have taught that book in adult Sunday School at least once, and have seen the Holy Spirit use it many times to cut through the clutter of men's nonsense and doubt (Heb. 4:12). Of course we cannot underestimate the importance of the Torah---it's the most holy of the sacred writings in Judaism.

But the Bible is more than Judaism. The basic concept here is this; our Holy Bible is not just another book. It's not just another religious book, or collection of writings. It's different from every other book in existence, and superior because it is the complete revelation of God's love and His plan for our salvation. So I think the reason people question something like this is a basic lack of understanding of what we have in our current King James Bible. I appreciate that you describe your friend as a "true and faithful believer," but I think we can all agree that anyone (Pope or pauper) who questions the validity of entire passages and books of the Bible would have to be placed in the category of "doubter."

Let's face it---there is no shortage of doubters when it comes to the Bible and its contents, even in the halls of many Christian universities. Many of these doubters are all fine citizens, well-educated, well paid and highly intelligent. But all of their doubts together won't add up to a pile of beans when the world is on fire. I would encourage you to order the commentary by Dr. Ruckman on this blessed book of the New Testament so you can help this gentleman and perhaps win him away from his doubt. Your friend needs to understand there are no factual errors in Hebrews, and there is no need reconcile it with other scriptures. The Torah is not our final authority, and if you we going to throw out Hebrews we might as well throw out the entire Bible.
  #20  
Old 04-24-2009, 02:56 PM
Tandi
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I too love the Book of Hebrews. I plan to order Peter Ruckman's commentary. I am sure I will glean much, even if I do not agree completely with everything he says.

I did find some online resources in defense of the book of Hebrews that were helpful and resolved some of the difficulties. I look forward to whatever answers some of you bring forth after studying these questions.

I am comfortable with not having all the answers to every Bible perplexity. Each time through the Bible I pick up another nugget that I had not seen before.

My friend has also seen other passages of Scripture that were perplexing resolve....such as the difficulties with Passion Chronology. So we keep prayerfully searching and seeking....and we shall find.

May truth prevail over tradition!

Too nice a day to be online. I'm going back outside in the sunshine.

Shalom,

Tandi
 

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