Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #1  
Old 06-24-2009, 11:57 AM
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PaulB PaulB is offline
 
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Default The Preserved word or its mortal remains – that’s the real Issue!

As far as I see it there is no middle ground. Believers are willingly standing either in one of two camps:

1) The ones who believe we have the very word of God in our hands today.
2) Those who are happy to profess & argue the point that we are left with nothing other than its mortal remains.

If I speak to a person face to face I am encountering that person first hand, but if I exhume their body from the grave then I am looking at their remains and nothing more!

If the Bible that we have today is the inspired & preserved word of the living God (as all KJB believers testify). Then, why is it that the promoters of the modern versions get mad at us for sticking to the historical profession of the true church, when they are the ones that are guilty of altering that profession?

And if the Bible has not been preserved then why even bother translating it in any form of language, (as all that is being achieved at best is the production of something that is a misrepresentation of those infallible originals?)

Their argument doesn’t make sense when it tested, because by their own profession they say “we no longer have the originals” and then they use their “majority theory” to prove that modern versions are closer to those none existent originals.

What I mean by the majority theory is that they claim that the sheer volume of modern versions out number the KJB in their witness as a way of singling out the KJB as being in error!
That’s like saying 99 out of 100 people can’t all be wrong when they disagree with a particular individual who, not only disagrees with them, but never claimed to one of them.

I don’t believe for one minute that the reformers of old died such horrible deaths and suffered such prolonged persecution because they thought that they could bring an alternative rendering to the long lost originals. No, they suffered and died knowing full well that they were delivering the people that were in darkness out of their bondage and tyranny, by providing them with the very words of God.

It seems to me that a crowd of conflicting witnesses has been purposely created so as to make the genuine article appear to be both unbelievable and without authority. It’s the word on trial once again just like Christ was before the rulers prior to His crucifixion, (false witnesses were brought forward to condemn and destroy the Just!)

If what they profess is true when attempting to justify themselves to be believers of preservation (i.e. that the word of God has been preserved throughout the entire body of translations). Then at what point was that line drawn? And if it hasn’t yet been drawn then surely the body of witnesses isn’t complete (as new versions continue to be released!)

Anyhow, who gets to determine the measuring line that disqualifies New World Translation as a valid version? And if we are so sure that the NWT is a false representation of those “original” manuscripts then by what standard was it proved to be so seeing as we no longer have the originals?
And if we are to measure all things by the what the Scriptures say, then why do the promoters of the modern versions get so uneasy & accusative of us when we apply the test of truth upon their false beliefs?

When something isn’t to be questioned or critiqued that sounds very much like a cult (the very title that they like to tar us with even though we do answer their questions and allow our stance to be critiqued!)

But when they are left unchallenged and given the freedom to do as they wish, it’s as though their liberties result in the production of versions that are expressions of the purchasers rather than the supposed author.

These days translations are turning into a religious fashion industry, where the feminist can have a version that suits them, a gay can have a version for themselves also, my question is what will be next “the new terrorists standard edition”?

Instead of a people (as a whole) coming under the authority of the “one book” like they used to (a book that everyone can memorise together), we now have made the “purchaser” into the final authority and their view as the thing to be memorised!

Like I said, it boils down to what is believed (i.e. an absolute standard by which we measure all things including ourselves – or the belief that there is no absolute truth other than the absence of that absolute.

It is practically postmodernism disguised as a profession of Christian faith.
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  #2  
Old 06-24-2009, 08:29 PM
HowlerMonkey
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I think it was C. S. Lewis who observed that the less the Bible is read, the more it is translated.

I think $$$$ is the prime reason for this trend and the Bible buying public is, as a general rule, quite fickle. They are happy to trade yesterday's "cool" translation for whatever has the biggest marketing budget today. These days a long life for a new translation is 25-35 years, they come and go like spring flowers.

There are all of these silly edition that they come out with, like the "American Patriot's Study Bible" that teaches it's readers how to be good American's and apparently mentions some guy named Mr. Christ who had a big impact on more important people like John Adams. I have seen Bibles for nurses, police, and even radical leftists who are offended by terms like "he" and "she." I've seen them with metal covers, camo covers you name it. There is even a "green" Bible that I guess is made from recycled copies of Penthouse and old newspapers (what a blessing!).

I think the Bible publishers are missing out on some areas that might enable them to milk a few more dollars out of naive Christians so here are some suggestions:

-The Simpson's Study Bible
-The Detroit Lion Fan's Bible (with the Book of Lamentations first)
-The Smoker's Bible (with pocket for cigarette pack and lighter)
-The EnviroBible (that biodegrades after you read it)
  #3  
Old 06-24-2009, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
As far as I see it there is no middle ground. Believers are willingly standing either in one of two camps:

1) The ones who believe we have the very word of God in our hands today.
2) Those who are happy to profess & argue the point that we are left with nothing other than its mortal remains.

If I speak to a person face to face I am encountering that person first hand, but if I exhume their body from the grave then I am looking at their remains and nothing more!

If the Bible that we have today is the inspired & preserved word of the living God (as all KJB believers testify). Then, why is it that the promoters of the modern versions get mad at us for sticking to the historical profession of the true church, when they are the ones that are guilty of altering that profession?

And if the Bible has not been preserved then why even bother translating it in any form of language, (as all that is being achieved at best is the production of something that is a misrepresentation of those infallible originals?)

Their argument doesn’t make sense when it tested, because by their own profession they say “we no longer have the originals” and then they use their “majority theory” to prove that modern versions are closer to those none existent originals.

What I mean by the majority theory is that they claim that the sheer volume of modern versions out number the KJB in their witness as a way of singling out the KJB as being in error!
That’s like saying 99 out of 100 people can’t all be wrong when they disagree with a particular individual who, not only disagrees with them, but never claimed to one of them.

I don’t believe for one minute that the reformers of old died such horrible deaths and suffered such prolonged persecution because they thought that they could bring an alternative rendering to the long lost originals. No, they suffered and died knowing full well that they were delivering the people that were in darkness out of their bondage and tyranny, by providing them with the very words of God.

It seems to me that a crowd of conflicting witnesses has been purposely created so as to make the genuine article appear to be both unbelievable and without authority. It’s the word on trial once again just like Christ was before the rulers prior to His crucifixion, (false witnesses were brought forward to condemn and destroy the Just!)

If what they profess is true when attempting to justify themselves to be believers of preservation (i.e. that the word of God has been preserved throughout the entire body of translations). Then at what point was that line drawn? And if it hasn’t yet been drawn then surely the body of witnesses isn’t complete (as new versions continue to be released!)

Anyhow, who gets to determine the measuring line that disqualifies New World Translation as a valid version? And if we are so sure that the NWT is a false representation of those “original” manuscripts then by what standard was it proved to be so seeing as we no longer have the originals?
And if we are to measure all things by the what the Scriptures say, then why do the promoters of the modern versions get so uneasy & accusative of us when we apply the test of truth upon their false beliefs?

When something isn’t to be questioned or critiqued that sounds very much like a cult (the very title that they like to tar us with even though we do answer their questions and allow our stance to be critiqued!)

But when they are left unchallenged and given the freedom to do as they wish, it’s as though their liberties result in the production of versions that are expressions of the purchasers rather than the supposed author.

These days translations are turning into a religious fashion industry, where the feminist can have a version that suits them, a gay can have a version for themselves also, my question is what will be next “the new terrorists standard edition”?

Instead of a people (as a whole) coming under the authority of the “one book” like they used to (a book that everyone can memorise together), we now have made the “purchaser” into the final authority and their view as the thing to be memorised!

Like I said, it boils down to what is believed (i.e. an absolute standard by which we measure all things including ourselves – or the belief that there is no absolute truth other than the absence of that absolute.

It is practically postmodernism disguised as a profession of Christian faith.
brother Paul. An excellent essay!

Jassy
  #4  
Old 06-24-2009, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey View Post
I think it was C. S. Lewis who observed that the less the Bible is read, the more it is translated.

I think $$$$ is the prime reason for this trend and the Bible buying public is, as a general rule, quite fickle. They are happy to trade yesterday's "cool" translation for whatever has the biggest marketing budget today. These days a long life for a new translation is 25-35 years, they come and go like spring flowers.

There are all of these silly edition that they come out with, like the "American Patriot's Study Bible" that teaches it's readers how to be good American's and apparently mentions some guy named Mr. Christ who had a big impact on more important people like John Adams. I have seen Bibles for nurses, police, and even radical leftists who are offended by terms like "he" and "she." I've seen them with metal covers, camo covers you name it. There is even a "green" Bible that I guess is made from recycled copies of Penthouse and old newspapers (what a blessing!).

I think the Bible publishers are missing out on some areas that might enable them to milk a few more dollars out of naive Christians so here are some suggestions:

-The Simpson's Study Bible
-The Detroit Lion Fan's Bible (with the Book of Lamentations first)
-The Smoker's Bible (with pocket for cigarette pack and lighter)
-The EnviroBible (that biodegrades after you read it)
I would agree that it has a LOT to do with $$$$$. Ca-ching, ca-ching go the cash registers in the so-called "Christian bookstores" which carry nary a KJV Bible, unless it's hidden in some obscure place in the back - but are filled to the brim with all kinds of modern translation trash. The minute you tell them you're looking for a Bible, they'll try to give you the slick sales approach to their latest version - which includes some very nice profits for them. Since the KJV has NO copyright - it's just not as lucrative and they know that KJV buyers are not going to be rushing into their store, the next time they have a newer, "better" version of the modern Bible.

SAD, very sad.

Jassy
  #5  
Old 06-24-2009, 09:04 PM
HowlerMonkey
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Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
I would agree that it has a LOT to do with $$$$$. Ca-ching, ca-ching go the cash registers in the so-called "Christian bookstores" which carry nary a KJV Bible, unless it's hidden in some obscure place in the back - but are filled to the brim with all kinds of modern translation trash. The minute you tell them you're looking for a Bible, they'll try to give you the slick sales approach to their latest version - which includes some very nice profits for them. Since the KJV has NO copyright - it's just not as lucrative and they know that KJV buyers are not going to be rushing into their store, the next time they have a newer, "better" version of the modern Bible.

SAD, very sad.

Jassy
I agree, I was in a national chain Christian bookshop just this evening, tons of MVs and about 5 AVs. At least in Britain "rights to the Authorized Version are vested in the Crown." Because of this I think that is why the text of British Bibles is often better than those from the US.
  #6  
Old 06-25-2009, 10:29 AM
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PaulB PaulB is offline
 
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Smile Jassy/Howler monkey

Good to hear your replies and quite encouraging because even though I live in the home land of the KJB I am a rare Christian species!

To be KJB only in England these days is almost unheard of in most churches!
When I bought mine about 4 years ago I had to order it because it is not that popular here any longer.

England died spiritually a long time ago and the best sources of spiritual truth tend to come from our precious brethren in the USA.

So haring from you guys is very very encouraging and strengthening.

God Bless

PaulB
  #7  
Old 06-25-2009, 11:39 AM
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bondservant40 bondservant40 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey View Post
I think it was C. S. Lewis who observed that the less the Bible is read, the more it is translated.
Yep, it was. I love that quote. It's actually on the side of my blog page.
  #8  
Old 06-25-2009, 11:53 AM
Bro. Parrish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
And if the Bible has not been preserved then why even bother translating it in any form of language, (as all that is being achieved at best is the production of something that is a misrepresentation of those infallible originals?)

Their argument doesn’t make sense when it tested, because by their own profession they say “we no longer have the originals” and then they use their “majority theory” to prove that modern versions are closer to those none existent originals.
Paul you are correct, the issue is preservation. (see my sig scripture)

I post this up on the forum from time to time, it was written many years ago, but still frames the opposition in the brightest light... may God bless you as you seek His truth.



THE CREED OF THE ALEXANDRIAN CULT

by Peter Ruckman

1. There is NO FINAL AUTHORITY but God.

2. Since God is a SPIRIT, there is NO FINAL AUTHORITY that can be seen, heard, read, felt or handled.

3. Since all books are MATERIAL, there is NO BOOK ON THIS EARTH THAT IS THE FINAL AND ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY on what is right and what is wrong; what constitutes TRUTH and what constitutes ERROR.

4. There WAS a series of writings one time which, IF they had all been put into a BOOK as soon as they were written the first time, WOULD HAVE constituted an infallible and final authority by which to judge truth and error.

5. However, this series of writings was LOST, and the God Who inspired them was UNABLE TO PRESERVE THEIR CONTENT through Bible-believing Christians at Antioch (Syria), where the first Bible teachers were (Acts 13:1), and where the first missionary trip originated (Acts 13:1-6), and where the word "CHRISTIAN" originated (Acts 11:26).

6. So, God chose to ALMOST preserve them through Gnostics and philosophers from Alexandria, Egypt, even though God called HIS SON OUT of Egypt (Mat. 2), JACOB OUT of Egypt (Gen. 49), ISRAEL OUT of Egypt (Exod. 15), and JOSEPH'S BONES OUT of Egypt (Exod. 13).

7. So, there are two streams of Bibles: the most accurate - though, of course, there is NO FINAL, ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY FOR DETERMINING TRUTH AND ERROR: it is a matter of "preference" - are the Egyptian translations from Alexandria, Egypt, which are "almost the originals," although NOT QUITE.

8. The most INACCURATE TRANSLATIONS were those that brought about the GERMAN REFORMATION (Luther, Zwingli, Boehler, Zinzendorf, Spener, etc.) and the worldwide MISSIONARY MOVEMENT of the English speaking people: the Bible that Sunday, Torrey, Moody, Finney, Spurgeon, Whitfield, Wesley, and Chapman used.

9. But we can "tolerate" these if those who believe in them will tolerate US. After all, since THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE AND FINAL AUTHORITY THAT ANYONE CAN READ, TEACH, PREACH, OR HANDLE, the whole thing is a matter of "PREFERENCE." You may prefer what you prefer, and we will prefer what WE prefer: let us live in peace, and if we cannot agree on anything or everything, let us all agree on one thing: THERE IS NO FINAL, ABSOLUTE, WRITTEN AUTHORITY OF GOD ANYWHERE ON THIS EARTH.

This is the creed of the Alexandrian Cult.

Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 06-25-2009 at 11:59 AM.
  #9  
Old 06-25-2009, 04:28 PM
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PaulB PaulB is offline
 
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Default Bro Parrish

Thanks for your reply - I haven't seen the Alexandrian creed before but it is so true isn't it? The "originals only" argument just doesn’t wash does it? Put it this way – if that was true then only the Ten Commandments that were written on stone could be classed as authentic, anything else after it is only a “copy”. Which then starts the argument that the ones that were placed in the ark were not the originals, as Moses broke them in his anger! Yet, what Christian in their right mind would argue that we no longer have the Ten Commandments?

I found points 4 5 & 8 of particular interest as it seems pretty obvious to me that the believers of these new versions are arguing the points that the reformers of old fought against in order to get the word to the common folk. And now its as though they are giving the Bible back to God and begging for the dark ages once again where the language of the unknown tongue is sounded, no one understands it, but everyone trusts that its true!

It was the light of the word that liberated the west out of ignorance that it was held under because everyone knew for themselves what God’s word said. But now (thanks to improved scholarship and extra light) all of a sudden no one knows anything sure anymore other than there is no definite word of God. If I didn’t know better I would see this as a deliberate infiltration of the enemy into our ranks (and I mean in the leading positions). This is no accident it has been carefully planned for a long long time with the aim of dissolving our hold on society.

The protestant church is closer to Rome now than it ever has been and what troubles me the most is that Rome hasn’t shifted an inch – it is the protestants that are now opposing the professions of faith that freed us from the its tyranny. If that were not the case, then there wouldn’t be a need for forums such as the one we are now communicating on!

I don’t know about anyone else on this site, but I had a great deal of difficulty preaching from the KJB after spending a decade in the NASV along with other version because (by default) you start reciting your passages in a broken and mixed up manner. I had to get an overdose of Alexander Scourby on a regular basis to straighten me out! Now I’m fine, but I must confess it took me a few years to ajust properly!

God bless

PaulB
  #10  
Old 06-25-2009, 08:22 PM
Bro. Parrish
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Yes, I know what you mean about reciting your passages in a broken and mixed up manner. (I used to carry a Living Bible, yes me Bro. Parrish with a Living Bible, can you imagine).

The KJV lends itself far better to memorization for me. I think this may have been part of God's plan for preserving it the way He did. It wasn't until I started memorizing passages in the KJV for soul-winning that I realized how the King's English flows off the tongue and cuts thru the doubt and confusion in a man's life, it's peculiar.

I tell you brother, I have seen God's Spirit bring even the roughest men to tears when they hear the words in that old book. I have seen years of confusion from evolution and humanism just fall off a man, stripped away and burned off by the power of God's Holy Word. (Heb. 4:12) After years of street witnessing, hospital visits, door to door, etc., I can honestly say from experience that the new versions simply do not have the power of the KJV in soul-winning efforts.
 

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