Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 05-30-2009, 11:19 AM
greenbear's Avatar
greenbear greenbear is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 492
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
No while we know Satan as a male what would he be, male man. male ox. male lion or male eagle? Just a thought as the Bible teaches Angels are males. what sex would cherubim s and seraphim's be? most likely they are male but what type of male?
Quote:
what sex would cherubim s and seraphim's be? most likely they are male...
Female was only made for man and not by direct creation but from man's rib. Are there any scriptures (or lack of) that would make you question what sex cheribims and seraphims are?

I think the type of male that cherubims and seraphims fall under is the angelic order.
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #32  
Old 05-30-2009, 12:16 PM
greenbear's Avatar
greenbear greenbear is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 492
Default

[QUOTE=kevinvw;21085]

Quote:
I don't believe that we have to get out sin nature from our father. I think that it comes from having Adamic flesh.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus was tempted like we are yet without sin. If He didn't have old Adam in Him like we do then this verse seems awfully vain. In fact, how was he even tempted to sin if He didn't even have it in Him?
kevinvw,

Thank you for pointing this out. This is so important. This notion that our sin nature comes down through the fathers blood, if true, means that Christ could not become the propitiation for our sins because He could not have been tempted in every way as we are. And He could not be our faithful high priest. I see this idea of Jesus having God's blood, not human blood, as worse than a cunningly devised fable. I see it as a doctrine of anti-christ. If anyone disagrees I want to know where I am wrong so please let me know.

Hebrews
Quote:
2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
I'll go with the Word of God on this one rather than "fables" of father's blood and mother's flesh, and the quoting of passages of scripture that have nothing to do with the topic, and the careless disregard for passages that have everything to do with this topic. This is, of course, only IMHO.
  #33  
Old 05-30-2009, 03:33 PM
tonybones2112's Avatar
tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 754
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Ancient art from Babylon is very revealing. This sculpture I believe is supposed to be Nimrod, the mighty hunter. Notice he is a giant, and is holding a full grown lion with one hand. He also has 6 fingers, and 6 toes on his hands and feet.



And here is a sculpture of a man with wings. Could this mean this man was the offspring of angels and man?

Brother Win, are we supposed to base a Bible teaching, or even a speculation, on something that's "supposed" to be this or that? I have a little second cousin who was born with two thumbs, does that make her the offspring of demonic angels? Are we to assume being born with extra digits, toes, fingers, arms, which I believe and I stand corrected, is called being "polydactyl", a sign someone was sired in the past by a fallen angel? Catholics burned polydactyls for that reason, as a female infant in India was born with four arms was declared the Goddess Kali.

The second picture is most certainly in error, Biblical angels do not have wings.

Grace and peace brother

Tony
  #34  
Old 05-30-2009, 03:56 PM
tonybones2112's Avatar
tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 754
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinvw View Post
Okay, first of all, the whole thing about the angels being sexless is flat out wrong. They are all males. Every angel is a man, and the book of Revelation points that the clearest.

Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

If there are no angels that are women, they obviously aren't going to be marrying each other since marriage is sexual and is clearly spoken of as being between man and woman. We all become sons of God, not sons and daughters. The verses in Job and wherever else in the Old Testament say sons not daughters.

I don't believe that we have to get out sin nature from our father. I think that it comes from having Adamic flesh.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus was tempted like we are yet without sin. If He didn't have old Adam in Him like we do then this verse seems awfully vain. In fact, how was he even tempted to sin if He didn't even have it in Him?

I agree with sister Greenbear, that Jude and Peter are giving reference to the sons of God that came and fornicated with human women. I also agree with whoever said that the after that is not saying that there were giants before and then after, but is saying that after the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, those men became mighty men.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Look at the sentence structure.

...and also after that,...

After what?

....when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bare them children to them,...

What about them?

...the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The semicolon is used to separate two independent clauses which carry their own subject, but are closely related. The after that is not referring to the subject of the previous sentence but of what follows after it. At least that's what I think he was trying to say. It's 4 in the morning and I'm passed due for sleep.
Mary, mother of Jesus, was "Adamic flesh". Did Christ have a sin nature then? No, Christ had no sin nature because His Father was God, not Joseph, where the din nature of man was passed onto Jesus's half-siblings however. and where the offspring of our alleged fornicating angel of Genesis 6 would also have no sin nature with no human father.

Grace and peace brother

Tony
  #35  
Old 05-30-2009, 04:42 PM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 73
Default

Bro. Tony, I'm going to have to say that you're flat out wrong about your presumptions that Christ had no sin nature. I don't know of any scriptures that support your position but I do know that the book of Hebrews definitely says that Jesus was like us being tempted to sin, and was made perfect through obedience. You can have your Jesus that never was tempted and doesn't know what it's like to have the natural man nagging at Him all the time, and I will take the Jesus of the Bible that overcame the natural man and the devil put them down every time, who will also help me to do the same because He experienced it Himself.

Last edited by kevinvw; 05-30-2009 at 04:51 PM.
  #36  
Old 05-30-2009, 05:12 PM
CKG CKG is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Warner Robins, Georgia
Posts: 197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Mary, mother of Jesus, was "Adamic flesh". Did Christ have a sin nature then? No, Christ had no sin nature because His Father was God, not Joseph, where the din nature of man was passed onto Jesus's half-siblings however. and where the offspring of our alleged fornicating angel of Genesis 6 would also have no sin nature with no human father.

Grace and peace brother

Tony
Exactly what is the sin nature? The NIV mentions it, but it is not in the word of God (KJV). Where did the sin nature originate and how does it get passed down? Do you sin because you have a sin nature? If the sin nature was passed down to you and you sin because you have a sin nature how can you be held accountable for your sin since you sin because of the sin nature which was passed down without your knowledge? We say homosexuals are in error when they say they were born that way, but we turn around and say people sin because they were born with a sin nature . BTW I'm not defending homosexuality and they weren't born that way. Like every other sinner they chose it I suspect sin nature like spiritual death made its way into modern teaching via the polluted stream of reformation theology.
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:14-15)
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (Galatians 5:16-17)
I'm not trying to hijack the thread but we need to believe what the Bible says and teaches and not modern pop theology. Our problem is our flesh and our flesh is not the sin nature because there is no such thing. If there was the Bible would teach it. Spiritual death and sin nature are rooted in the Calvinistic teaching of total depravity.

I get the feeling Tony can't accept that the sons of God of Genesis 6 are angels because it is beyond his understanding. Its definitely beyond my understanding, but I accept it because it is clear Bible teaching.
  #37  
Old 05-30-2009, 06:39 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 464
Default

Tony

I never meant to imply that we should base Bible teaching on ancient art. I didn't say anything like that, and I am surprised you took it that way.

The art is what it is. The Bible tells us of Nimrod, and the first photo was identified as an ancient Babylonian sculpture of Nimrod. They show him as a giant and a hunter. It is what it is.

I do not know who the second sculpture was, but it also appears to be a giant with wings. Now, the wings could have simply been symbolic, I don't know. But we have been discussing the topic that some believe angels took women as wives before Noah's time. I myself believe that is possible from the scriptures.

Another interesting thing about the 2nd photo is the object in the man's right hand. If you ask me, that looks just like a classic flying saucer. Or maybe just a sweet potato. :>)

You can say angels never took physical form, but that is not what the Bible tells me.

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

Lot could see these angels and asked them to tarry and "wash your feet". They also ate unleavened bread. So the Bible tells me angels can indeed take on physical reality when needed.
  #38  
Old 05-30-2009, 06:49 PM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
If I remember correctly, wasn't Satan a Cherub? Reptiles aren't represented by the 4 cheribim.
No where have I ever seen a reptile recorded in a description of a Cherubim either. but why are you thinking that a cherub is a reptile? because of the serpent and dragon of the Bible.

is a cherub and Cherubim the same?

sounds like a far fetch guess that Lucifer was a reptilian order. if the four cherubim around the throne all have the same description applied to them it would follow that the one that covereth would be of the same class not different.
  #39  
Old 05-30-2009, 07:16 PM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 73
Default

The word cherubim isn't in the Bible, but the plural of cherub is cherubims.
  #40  
Old 05-30-2009, 08:02 PM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 73
Default

Quote:
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Quote:
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The Bible says we were dead and had to be made alive, and that we by nature fulfilled the lust of the flesh and were the children of wrath.

Quote:
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Quote:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
We are said to be dead in the trespasses and sins, and Peter tells us that it is the Holy Spirit that quickens us. The Holy Spirit gives us the new birth that quickens our spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus had both births simultaneously. He was born of water (physically) and of blood (God's blood, spiritually). He never walked after the flesh because He had the power of God, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have. Just like we can walk after the lusts of the flesh even though we have been born of the Spirit and have been covered in God's blood, but through the Spirit of God we can overcome our flesh, the same as Jesus did and we are told that Jesus will help us do it.

Not everything is spelled out letter for letter or word for word.

Last edited by kevinvw; 05-30-2009 at 08:08 PM.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

 
Contact Us AV1611.Com