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Old 07-11-2009, 04:52 AM
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Ripdood Ripdood is offline
 
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Default Blotting out of the Book

I was raised in a Bible Believing home. My dad never once in all the time I was around him ever used anything but a King James Bible (Old Scofield). Dad was raised a Mennonite and was very strong in his beliefs. We attended a Baptist church because it was closer to home. Dad also attended there until later in life, he and mom went to a Church of God (Andersonville Indiana flavored).

When I was called to preach, he always supported me though we did have some lively discussions about some things. The one we discussed the most was Eternal Security. Dad believed you could lose it, I didn't then and I still don't to this day.

I gave the above just for background of where dad was coming from. I was never able to give him a solid answer about the following verses:

Ex. 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


I am asking this out of curiosity as well as seeking more understanding myself.

I believe we are sealed in our salvation and we can not lose it, I just never could explain these verses to dad.
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  #2  
Old 07-11-2009, 07:01 AM
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Fredoheaven Fredoheaven is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ripdood View Post
I was raised in a Bible Believing home. My dad never once in all the time I was around him ever used anything but a King James Bible (Old Scofield). Dad was raised a Mennonite and was very strong in his beliefs. We attended a Baptist church because it was closer to home. Dad also attended there until later in life, he and mom went to a Church of God (Andersonville Indiana flavored).

When I was called to preach, he always supported me though we did have some lively discussions about some things. The one we discussed the most was Eternal Security. Dad believed you could lose it, I didn't then and I still don't to this day.

I gave the above just for background of where dad was coming from. I was never able to give him a solid answer about the following verses:

Ex. 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


I am asking this out of curiosity as well as seeking more understanding myself.

I believe we are sealed in our salvation and we can not lose it, I just never could explain these verses to dad.
Hi Ripdood,

Greetings in Christ from the Philippines!

I know your concern about your father and I will pray for him. Now for your question about the above verses, I would like to share slight insights. Looking first in Exodus 32, we can tell that this is not concerning for us Christian or of the Church age. It has to do with the people of God in the Old testament who are the Israelites. I agree in that these particular text speaks to Moses by the LORD and it only concerned his people of old. The context has nothing to do with us or in our age.

Now, for the Revelation, the message of Revelation 3: 1-6 is to the church located in Sardis. Christ specifically noted the works of this church, while still exists the church ministry and its services are dead. It does not "grow in grace and in the knowledge...". It's not concern about lost souls. In general,the church is not growing in quality and in quantity. Christ commanded those that remain to be watchful and strengthen one another as they are ever ready to die for his(Christ) sake. In verse 3, they needed to remember those things they have received and heard and hold fast unto them and to changed their mind (repent) about the ministry or the work of God. The remnants found in these church are overcomers and they were clothed in white raiment, these are actually those who have been washed by the blood of Christ and wore a white raiment. These overcomers, saved and washed by the blood of Christ were assured that his name will not be blotted out from the book of life, which was an indeed an assurance of salvation not a threat to lose their salvation.
  #3  
Old 07-11-2009, 11:44 AM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Well, the word "blot" here means to wipe or wipe away, so obviously a person's name is in the book until it is wiped away or erased.

Also note that in these verses it speaks of future tense,

"him will I blot out of my book"

"and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life"

So, this blotting out had not occured at the time that the scripture was spoken. We do not know for a certainty when this takes place.

If you go to Revelations you see several books.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, we see here "books" plural, and if I understand the scripture properly, the dead are judged out of these "books" according to their works. Notice these books are mentioned first.

Then we see the "book of life" which is called "another book" in vs 12.

So, I can't be dogmatic about this, but it seems that every person's name is written in the book of life to begin with, but somewhere along the way some names are blotted out of this book. I believe this might be dealing with the age of accountability. We believe that infants and young children who die without understanding sin go to heaven. And scripture supports this.

2 Sam 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

We see here the story of David and Bathsheba's son who died. And look what David said:

2 Sam 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

David was assured of his salvation, and David believed when he died he would go to the same place as the young child who died. So many believe from this verse that when an infant or young child dies before the age of accountability, then they go to heaven. If so, then their name would be written in the book of life.

As for the other books, there are also verses that speak of sin being blotted out.

Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

So, it seems that in these other books mentioned in Revelations 20 are a man's works. And those that receive Christ have all their iniquities blotted out of these books.

But those who are aware of their sin and reached the age of accountability are judged by their works. Perhaps directly after this their names are blotted out of the book of life, or perhaps God knows the point at which a person will ultimately refuse to accept Christ and at that point blots their name out of the book of life. I can't say for certain.

But I do not believe it is speaking of losing salvation. I personally believe a believer is eternally secure.
  #4  
Old 07-11-2009, 12:36 PM
Bro. Parrish
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Ripdood,

That is a great question, many believers struggle with those verses, but this is usually because they have never really understood their wonderful position in Christ.

There is a lot of confusion over the issue of RELATIONSHIP (our unchanging position in Christ) and FELLOWSHIP (our daily walk with Christ).

The Apostle Paul was a sinner saved by grace, yet he struggled with the flesh and considered himself "carnal, sold under sin."

Looking at the verses below, you can almost feel the frustration Paul had with his daily walk with our Lord...

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"


Again, you can really sense the struggle and aggravation there.
So, did Paul think we could lose our salvation? No!

Why? Because he understood our POSITION in Christ, and our RELATIONSHIP with the Father. That's why in the very next chapter we find this same Paul writing something amazing in Roman chapter 8, and here it is...

37 "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."


When we are born again and redeemed by His precious blood, God imparts and INCORRUPTIBLE SEED IN US, that cannot sin or waver. This is important doctrine, and can be found in 1 Peter chapter 1 below, paying particular attention to verse 23 where our remarkable King James Bible nails it in plain english...

18 "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"
  #5  
Old 07-11-2009, 12:52 PM
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tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripdood View Post
I was raised in a Bible Believing home. My dad never once in all the time I was around him ever used anything but a King James Bible (Old Scofield). Dad was raised a Mennonite and was very strong in his beliefs. We attended a Baptist church because it was closer to home. Dad also attended there until later in life, he and mom went to a Church of God (Andersonville Indiana flavored).

When I was called to preach, he always supported me though we did have some lively discussions about some things. The one we discussed the most was Eternal Security. Dad believed you could lose it, I didn't then and I still don't to this day.

I gave the above just for background of where dad was coming from. I was never able to give him a solid answer about the following verses:

Ex. 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


I am asking this out of curiosity as well as seeking more understanding myself.

I believe we are sealed in our salvation and we can not lose it, I just never could explain these verses to dad.
Rip, Revelation is Tribulation doctrine, as is everything from Hebrews on, and Hebrews-Revelation is aimed at the Jews in the tribulation, on the verge of the restoration of Israel, and not to the Body of Christ today. Much of the dispensational discussions in this forum regards the different ministries to the Jews and to the Gentiles; the ministry today is to both equally(Eph. 2 & 3). We have eternal security, we are selaed unto the day of redemption, our sins are blotted out now, we are not written in any "book" Note Peter's statement to the Jews:

Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Many today practice the erroneous "confession to God" of sins already forgiven that I John 1:9 states quite clearly must be done. In the Tribulation, those saints will have to confess their sins to obtain forgiveness.

The Jews and Tribulation saints are and will be written in "the book of Life", we are part of Jesus Christ's Body.

Grace and peace

Tony
 

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