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  #11  
Old 05-28-2008, 12:42 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Hi Folks,

Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector
while it can take a few minutes to accept the received text on the subject, it would take more than a few minutes to study and understand the grammatical use itself.
Luke 16:19-25
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (continues)


Tenses are not as simple as past and present. You can be in the past and speak in the present tense. In this section the action is switching from past tense, moving to the present tense words of Abraham and Lazarus. (Our grammar experts can give the technical explanation.) Thus lift, being and seeth are all in a present tense, preparing the hearer of Jesus and the reader for the present tense conversation.

The Greek is a present participle (Bullinger points this out in an analysis that combines truth and error). Also, for our techies, we have.

http://scripturetext.com/luke/16-23.htm
επαρας verb - aorist active passive - nominative singular masculine

And the King James Bible "lift" (1611 & PCE) is properly giving the best translation sense of the present participle. (imho .. You do not need to be a grammar savant to get the gist of this.) And the more literal Bible, Rotherdam, often good on grammar despite textual and other weaknesses, agrees.

Note:
"A Present Participle is used with the verb 'To Be' to indicate an action that is incomplete".

Thus 'lifted' gives an improper sense, even if in some King James Bible editions and in many modern versions. 'Lift' - PCE and 1611, is pure and perfect.

Shalom,
Steven
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #12  
Old 05-28-2008, 10:18 PM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
Brother, did you have a little too much coffee this morning? A little edgy aren't we?

There's no such thing as a little too much coffee

Will K
  #13  
Old 05-29-2008, 02:56 PM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Kinney View Post
There's no such thing as a little too much coffee
Agreed! (As I drink a nice cup of joe...)
  #14  
Old 05-29-2008, 03:59 PM
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Debau Debau is offline
 
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Quote:
Brother, did you have a little too much coffee this morning? A little edgy aren't we?
Is that in aorist tense, and what is the Present Participle here?

Thanks for the grammatical breakdown.
  #15  
Old 05-30-2008, 06:45 AM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Default lift up his eyes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debau View Post
Is that in aorist tense, and what is the Present Participle here?

Thanks for the grammatical breakdown.
From the information I have (lexicons) and what I know of Greek, the word for "he lift up" his eyes, is not a passive at all, but is the aorist active indicative participle. Most people today would probably translate it literally as "having lifted up his eyes, being in torment (present participle)he sees Abraham (present tense)...

By the way, participles generally are verb forms that often become adjectives and are descriptive. Example - verb 'to close'. I closed the door. (active verb, preterite tense). Now, the door is 'closed'. = participle of the verb 'to close'. It shows the resultant state and serves as an adjective.

The participle is also used with what are called the perfect tenses, present perfect, past perfect, future perfect. Example: I have closed the door. I had closed the door, and I shall have closed the door.

Hope this helps a bit.

Will K
  #16  
Old 05-30-2008, 09:12 AM
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What I want to know is who left the door open anyhow!
  #17  
Old 05-30-2008, 03:51 PM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Default Who did what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
What I want to know is who left the door open anyhow!

The same guy who had a little too much coffee this morning.
 

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