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Old 07-01-2009, 08:17 PM
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Default The Ordinances

1Corithians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Could the ordinances Paul is referring to here be the letter he and Barnabas were sent to deliver to each of the Gentile churches in Acts 15. Paul and Jesus never refer to the Lord's Table and Baptism as ordinances in the word of God.

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Webster's Dictionary meaning of Ordinance states: 2. A rule established by authority; a permanent rule of action; a statute, law, regulation, rescript, or accepted usage; an edict or decree; esp., a local law enacted by a municipal government; as, a municipal ordinance.

So "decrees for to keep" indicate some form of ordinance that was to be kept Acts 21:25 supports this as does the original counsel meeting in Acts 15

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

and for after 1Cor11:2 Paul goes into talking about prayer. Baptism never comes into view in this chapter and later the remarks, 1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, would be something Paul privately got from the Lord during his time in Damascus and Arabia. would indicate the ordinances of Verse 2 was the letter from the Jerusalem counsel. for if chapter 11 is progressive in Paul's thinking he first clarifies Prayer by whom and how, then the coming together for the Lord's tables, then details on How the Lord told Paul about the Lord's table and how it is to be observed.

Now never anywhere in Paul's writing s does he give what we call the ordinance of Baptism or clarify at any times that Doctrine of Baptism by water immersion. this is no indication that it wasn't practiced or observed. but the Lord Table and water Baptism is connected with the term ordinances. and the term delivered would be a weak basis to establish an doctrine of ordinances. for Paul delivered the letter from the Jerusalem counsel, he delivered money to the Jerusalem saints, he delivered some unto Satan.

How is it we have come to call Baptism and the Lord's table Ordinances when in the Bible they are never called ordinances?

So I have some to the conclusion Verse 2 is pointing to the letter from the Jerusalem counsel and not referring to the Lord's Table and Baptism as we have come to call them ordinances.

Last edited by chette777; 07-01-2009 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 07-03-2009, 02:29 AM
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Bro. Chette,
1. The Lord's Supper is in the context of the "ordinances" (1 Corinthians 11:2).
2. The "decrees" of Acts 16:4 and Acts 15:20 were of James and the rest of the Twelve. They were not what Paul said to be "the ordinances AS I DELIVERED UNTO YOU".
There are many "ordinances" in the Bible (including Col. 2:14-16), but Paul is talking about the ordinances that he (PAUL) delivered for the church to observe.
3. An "ordinance", as defined in Exodus (in chapter 12, for example) and other OT passages, is an "order", "a memorial", and a "service". Paul reminds the church to observe those ordinances - memorial services that he ordered to be kept - that he received from the Lord to be delivered by him to the church in this age.
4. Since he did give an "order" to keep the Lord's supper in the same chapter he mentions "ordinances" (1 Cor. 11:2), then the Lord's supper is one of those ordinances. Since it is plural ("ordinancES"), then it must be at least two. If one is Lord's supper, what's the other one?
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Old 07-03-2009, 03:51 AM
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Lets take Chapter 11 and look at it verse by verse.

vs1 instruction to follow him as he does Christ
vs2 He praises them for remembering him (not Jesus) and keeping the ordinances he delivered unto them (I believe it was the letter to abstain from blood, strangled animals, things offered to idol and fornication. and according to your understanding he is speaking of the Lord's supper which he does not take up until verse17)
Vv3-16 Paul speaks of Authority of the head and shamefulness if a woman prophecies or prays with uncovered head or a man does so covered. (if I follow you logic of uniting vs 2 to vs 17 and beyond. then this is the first ordinance the ordinance of proper prophecy and prayer)
Vv 17-22 speak if the divisions in the fellowship and impropriety of coming together for the Lord's Supper the bread and the cup.
Vv23-26 Paul establishes when and where he received and delivered unto them and he then narrates what it was he had received the info of the Upper room the last night he was alive. and that this supper was to be done in remembrance..
Vv27-34 Paul also continues to show the improper attitude towards other in the body and that each man judge himself then take and eat. and that it should all be done at once as one body.

Why do we make Baptism one of the two when Paul never, as he does the Lord's Table, make mention of Baptism as something he delivered unto them?

plus vs 23 is a totally different delivery than that mentioned in vs 2. other wise he did not need to mention it again.

The Gospels upper room discourses
Matt 26 gives no instruction to do
Mark 14 gives no instruction to do
Luke 22 says this do in remembrance of me as does Paul, it is obvious it is a memorial.

But vs 23 makes the fact that Paul is not referring to verse 2 for they are two different deliver unto you statements. we have made it say that is is the Lord's Table without any regards to what was delivered by the hand of Paul to every Gentile church that he visited. which was just as inspired by God than any other word of the scriptures.

Many Christians are not following the four decrees set forth by the Jerusalem counsel and why is that? are churches are full of people committing sexual immorality, being members of secret societies drinking blood (even symbolic form) here in the Philippines Dugoan(SP? Blood) dish is eaten by Christians, Animal are sold at the store that have not had their blood removed yet we buy it without question.

I am not saying Paul didn't receive or deliver the Lord's supper he says so in Vs23-26. but Verse two seems to be more inline with another set of ordinances Plural. but 1Cor 11:23 only covers an ordinance of the Lord's Supper (that is what we call it though it is never called that by Paul or Jesus). The only plural ordinances we have record of Paul every delivering to the churches including Corinth is the Letter from Jerusalem.

The first use of the word Ordinance in context of Exodus 12:14 is in line with the word Statute. the Hebrew word chuqqah, khook-kaw' never means "remembrance, service or memorial" it does mean appointed, custom, manner, ordinance, site, statute the same as our English word

Sonny you did however do a great job in defending a long standing traditional teaching that the Lord's Supper is an ordinance.

Ac 15:22 ¶ Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Just so you don't think they were limited in their deleivery they went beyond antioch Syria and Cilicia to Derbe and Lystra and chapter 21 says the Gentiles meaning all gentile believers and they delievered these decreees when they "went through the cities"

Ac 16:1 ¶ Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Ac 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Last edited by chette777; 07-03-2009 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 07-04-2009, 01:59 AM
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Brother, here's what I see:

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1. By context, in the same chapter, it seems that it would be a stretch to make 1 Corinthians 11:2 to refer to Acts 15:20. The nearer context to 1 Corinthians 11:2 is 1 Corinthians 11:23.

2. We can also notice the parallelism between the two verses:

1 Corinthians 11:2...keep the ordinances, AS I DELIVERED THEM TO YOU
1 Corinthians 11:23 FOR I HAVE RECEIVED OF THE LORD THAT WHICH ALSO I DELIVERED UNTO YOU, That the Lord Jesus ...
took bread


3. Not only that, in 1 Corinthians 11, Paul is talking about the ordinances which he RECEIVED OF THE LORD and that which he himself DELIVERED to the church.

The Acts 15 letters were received from the Jewish apostles, and it was not delivered BY Paul but BY the Twelve through Paul.

4. The context can not be ignored. Concerning Acts 21 and Acts 15, it's very important to note WHO is speaking.

Acts 21:25 writings were NOT the ordinances received by Paul from the Lord. They were were "written" especially by James and all the elders present who said "we have written and concluded that the Gentiles observe certain things".

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him,...
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Acts 15:13, 19, 20 make it clear that its James who made this "sentence" with his Jewish "brethren".

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

These were written to the Gentiles, but, this were not the "ordinances" which Paul "received of the Lord" and "delivered" to the church.

Furthermore, Matthew 26 Lord's Supper was delivered by Jesus TO THE TWELVE and will be observed by Kingdom believers AS THE TWELVE DELIVERED IT TO THEM.

Paul is emphasizing in 1 Corinthians 11 that the ORDINANCES that he RECEIVED OF THE LORD (by the direct revelation, and not after men) and DELIVERED TO THE CHURCH are to be observed AS HE (PAUL) DELIVERED IT, and not as Christ (before the cross) or the Twelve delivered it.

5. Also, Acts 15 and Acts 21 mentions no "ORDINANCE" whatsoever.
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Old 07-04-2009, 02:04 AM
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Default On the terminology "Lord's Supper" and "Water Baptism"

Brother Chette,
I just use the term "Lord's Supper" for ease of reference.
Aslo, I "swordsearched" (credits to Brother Brandon) the term "Water Baptism" and here is the result that I got:

"Sorry, no matching verses found (KJV)."
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Old 07-04-2009, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post

Many Christians are not following the four decrees set forth by the Jerusalem counsel and why is that? are churches are full of people committing sexual immorality, being members of secret societies drinking blood (even symbolic form) here in the Philippines Dugoan(SP? Blood) dish is eaten by Christians, Animal are sold at the store that have not had their blood removed yet we buy it without question.
Fornication - Paul gave specific instructions: "Abstain", etc.
Idolatry - Paul gave specific instructions: "Flee", etc.
Blood - Paul's command: ______________
Things Strangled - Paul's command: _______________

Paul was silent, but he DID GIVE INSTRUCTIONS CONCERNING FOOD:

1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

So I don't eat dinugoan, not because James (or Noah or Moses) told me not to eat blood, but because Paul told me this:

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

But concerning blood and things strangled, I say this with Paul:

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:14 AM
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thanks Sammy very interesting info you gave.
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Old 07-04-2009, 09:58 AM
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Default Happy Fourth......

1Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

The Lord Jesus was baptized.
Matt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized…

Paul was baptized
Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

The disciples baptized people
John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Many were baptized on Pentecost
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Samaritans were baptized
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

The Ethiopian eunuch was baptized
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Lydia and her household were baptized
Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household…..

The Philippian jailer and his household were baptized
Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Crispus and many Corinthians were baptized
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

About 12 disciples at Ephesus were baptized
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas were baptized by Paul personally
1Cor 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Cor 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Cor. 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas:


1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.


Christians don't have to do anything, except believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Christians should do many things in obedience to God's Word.

Off to Carowinds......
Have a great day ya'll.
  #9  
Old 07-12-2009, 02:45 AM
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Default What The Grace Of God Will NOT Allow

Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
1Corithians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Could the ordinances Paul is referring to here be the letter he and Barnabas were sent to deliver to each of the Gentile churches in Acts 15. Paul and Jesus never refer to the Lord's Table and Baptism as ordinances in the word of God.

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Webster's Dictionary meaning of Ordinance states: 2. A rule established by authority; a permanent rule of action; a statute, law, regulation, rescript, or accepted usage; an edict or decree; esp., a local law enacted by a municipal government; as, a municipal ordinance.

So "decrees for to keep" indicate some form of ordinance that was to be kept Acts 21:25 supports this as does the original counsel meeting in Acts 15

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

and for after 1Cor11:2 Paul goes into talking about prayer. Baptism never comes into view in this chapter and later the remarks, 1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, would be something Paul privately got from the Lord during his time in Damascus and Arabia. would indicate the ordinances of Verse 2 was the letter from the Jerusalem counsel. for if chapter 11 is progressive in Paul's thinking he first clarifies Prayer by whom and how, then the coming together for the Lord's tables, then details on How the Lord told Paul about the Lord's table and how it is to be observed.

Now never anywhere in Paul's writing s does he give what we call the ordinance of Baptism or clarify at any times that Doctrine of Baptism by water immersion. this is no indication that it wasn't practiced or observed. but the Lord Table and water Baptism is connected with the term ordinances. and the term delivered would be a weak basis to establish an doctrine of ordinances. for Paul delivered the letter from the Jerusalem counsel, he delivered money to the Jerusalem saints, he delivered some unto Satan.

How is it we have come to call Baptism and the Lord's table Ordinances when in the Bible they are never called ordinances?

So I have some to the conclusion Verse 2 is pointing to the letter from the Jerusalem counsel and not referring to the Lord's Table and Baptism as we have come to call them ordinances.
Mt 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Mt 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Ac 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

I'm not going to address in detail water baptism, we have a thread for that already, I will say Paul's commission was not water baptism to make a "kingdom of priests" of israel, the gospel of the kingdom of Heaven(Restored Israel) but the gospel of Christ crucified apart from any work that is now made available to Gentiles equal in His Body. Paul's ministry in the book of Acts was "to the Jew first, and also the Greek(proselytes). Why then did Paul baptize Jews? He had to, it is the first sign of an apostle(Mark 16). Water baptism is not operative or effications without signs following, and the Jews require a sign, I don't. Same with "the Lord's supper". Firstly, this "supper" was initiated on the Jewish Passover, which I don't observe. I'm a Gentile and so are you. What is the spiritual application of this then? In the Body of Christ we remember His sacrifice, we show the Lord's death with every meal we eat.

FInd me one other Christian who believes and practices that. Give it a try sometime. Not a weekly or monthly or yearly event, try remembering the skin whipped from His Body and then nailed to a cross every time you eat.

EW Bullinger stated the Body of Christ began at Acts 28, he was wrong, the signs and ordinances ceased at Acts 28.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )

I practice NO ordinances of water baptism, the "Lord's supper", nor teach any, and no man on this planet, no Baptist, Protestant, Catholic, or cultist is allowed to judge me for it. God's Grace will not allow it.

God's Grace will not allow what can be seen:

Water baptism
The "Lord's supper".
Tongues
Signs
Wonders
Healing
Handling snakes
Dress codes
"Church letters"
"Foot washing"

There is one thing and one thing only God's grace will allow:

The preaching of the cross. If you add anything to that, welcome to Galatia my friend, there is a MOTEL 6 right up the road.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

There is your "great commission", and it begins with your next door neighbor, not 10,000 miles away.

Grace and peace friends

Tony
  #10  
Old 07-12-2009, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Same with "the Lord's supper". Firstly, this "supper" was initiated on the Jewish Passover, which I don't observe. I'm a Gentile and so are you. What is the spiritual application of this then? In the Body of Christ we remember His sacrifice, we show the Lord's death with every meal we eat.
Do you have a Scripture for that?

I Cor. 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper. [Oh, so it IS legitimate to call it the Lord's supper!]
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. [So the Lord's supper is distinct from our own meals!]
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. [if you want to eat a meal, eat it at home. the Lord's supper is a distinct memorial, not a big fellowship gathering to stuff ourselves!]
23 ¶ For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: [Yikes! this instruction is coming directly from the Lord!!!]
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. [v. 23-26 are rehearsals of what happened on that night before Jesus was crucified]
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. [now we move into the present instruction concerning the Lord's supper]
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Paul makes a distinction between our ordinary "fellowship" meals, and a particular meal that HE terms "the Lord's supper." He uses the terms "this bread, this cup, that bread, that cup" to distinguish it from all others. He is speaking of a particular meal that we as believers are to partake of. We are to partake of it for the expressed purpose in v. 26.
The passage condemns those who were pretending to observe "the Lord's supper" without consideration for the poor who could bring nothing to the table. So the rich excluded the poor; the rich stuffed themselves, and the poor went hungry in their pretend observation.
Paul corrects that, reminds them that (1) there IS a thing called "the Lord's supper", (2) it is to be observed by all in the church, with no regard to economy, (3) it was a simple observation that reminds us of the broken body of Christ, and the blood that was shed, which are seen in the bread and grape juice.
 

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