[PeterAV]

I do not pretend my view is authoritative. However, if using a plural is wrong, than scripture was broken for millennia, which I cannot accept. Also, it means the KJV is not a preservation of scripture, but a correction of scripture.

*******
Brian,
There are many, many times that a plural is translated into a singular when using a different language.
I would hazard a guess that every translator does this, if they are to make proper sense of the sentence in context, and in this case, biblical sense.
*******
Scripture has been broken in that it has been scattered for millenia.
But no, the Scriptures have not been broken.
The AV IS the best there is in the world.
It has had the privilege of preserving the word of God in perfection.
And yes it has the fact of a perfecting of that which was from good stock, that has human errors. Tyndale to Erasmus and Beza.

[ltpage]

I'm glad there are folks out there that can expound on things I know to be true in defence of the King James Bible.

[PeterAV]

Me too! [See my testimony;] Becoming KJB Only
http://thetruth11187.yuku.com/topic/370?page=4

I have read quite a few Bibles, but the godly standard is none other than the beloved King James Bible.

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Originally Posted by BrianT

The Hebrew word is plural in this verse.

Brian, what would be the singular word for heaven in Genesis 1:1 ?

Shalom,
Steven

Originally Posted by illusionznc

I had a NKJV & a NIV, but I burned the corrupt thing's. I only read the Authorized King James Version now.

LOL, you got me laughing on that one,
great post brother you have the best one now...

Hi all,

Not at all. The Scripture was always correct. It is apparent that some presentations of the Scripture are corrupt. It meant "heaven" ever since Moses wrote it, and it was "heaven" in English all along. The change to "heavens" in English only happened in the twentieth century. Clearly it is a corruption.

So you're saying the scripture was always correct, even though it is plural in Hebrew, but its an error to retain the plural when translating. Sorry, but that's not exactly convincing.

Apart from Hebrew, "heavens" in this verse is much older than the 20th century. The Peshitta has it as a plural, as does the Spanish RV, both of which various KJV-only supporters have claimed are "the word of God" in those languages, and both predate the KJV. As for English, at least Young's Literal and Darby translated it as a plural before the 20th century, and there may be others but I am traveling and unable to access my fuller notes.

What lengths are you willing to go to prove the KJB wrong?

Is the idea that Gen 1:1 is an overview really such a "length"? I am not arguing that the KJV is wrong, I am challenging the idea that it is wrong to translate the plural as a plural in this verse. If the KJV translated it as a plural, and the NKJV as a singular, I have no doubt that you would be opposing translating the plural Hebrew as a singular in this instance.

Then how do you know the Hebrew means "heavens"? I know it must have meant "heaven" because I know I have an accurate English Bible.

I know because the exact same Hebrew is translated as "heavens" in dozens of other verses in the KJV.

So, none of this "all versions including the KJV" stuff: no, now we see it: the KJB is in error. I don't spend my time bashing modern versions, but some people seem to delight in taking up time and space doing anything to bash the KJB.

I am not saying the KJV is in error here, I am challenging the idea that the NKJV must be in error for translating a plural as a plural. As for you spending time bashing modern versions, you yourself started this entire discussion on Gen 1:1 by saying "The NKJV already messes up Genesis 1:1..."

you are applying a false meaning to the Hebrew today that did not exist there in the distant past

Huh? The exact same Hebrew is translated as "heavens" in dozens of places in the KJV.

It is quite Islamic!....It is like the Black Islamic cult saying that all white people are devils.

I expect constant ad hominem from you, but please try to make it comprehensible.

Hi PeterAV,

There are many, many times that a plural is translated into a singular when using a different language.
I would hazard a guess that every translator does this, if they are to make proper sense of the sentence in context, and in this case, biblical sense.

I agree. However, just because it legitimately happens at times does not mean we should condemn when it doesn't happen. We shouldn't oppose a rule being used just because there are occasionally exceptions to that rule, especially when following the rule does not result in any sort of error.

Hi Steve,

Brian, what would be the singular word for heaven in Genesis 1:1 ?

In Hebrew, the suffix "-im" (pronounced "eem") indicates a plural ending, as "-s" does for English. The singular form of this word (without the "-im" suffix) appears in verses that have both "heaven" and "heavens" in the same verse, such as Deut 10:14, 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chron 2:6, 2 Chron 6:18, and Neh 9:6.

God bless,
Brian

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Originally Posted by BrianT

In Hebrew, the suffix "-im" (pronounced "eem") indicates a plural ending, as "-s" does for English. The singular form of this word (without the "-im" suffix) appears in verses that have both "heaven" and "heavens" in the same verse, such as Deut 10:14, 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chron 2:6, 2 Chron 6:18, and Neh 9:6.

Let us be more specific, Brian. First, let us take your first example, unusual as it is, special idiomatic construction as it is (clearly better would be to use one of the 500+ places where the word is simply 'heaven' singular).

Deuteronomy 10:14 (KJB)
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God,
the earth also, with all that therein is.

Deuteronomy 10:14 (Holman)
The heavens, indeed the highest heavens,
belong to the Lord your God,
as does the earth and everything in it.

Uh, oh, Brian, already we have a problem. Did Holman miss your singular ? Or are they simply deficient, not up to Brian snuff. And why do they have two plurals ? Hmmm...

And why not tell us more specifically the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 10:14. The three words involved, the Hebrew of each one, whether any two are an idiomatic usage, and which word or words match Genesis 1:1, and their proper Brianian English. Then we will go on. Do as much of the above as you are capable.

And to work with a much simpler verse. (Feel free to just work with this one first if you like.)

Genesis 1:8
And God called the firmament Heaven.
And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Simply tell us your difference between the hebrew word for 'heavens' (per Brian) in Genesis 1:1 and 'Heaven' in Genesis 1:8. Or tell us if you assert this is a flawed translation of Genesis 1:8 because it does not indicate your plural. (ie. Brian's claimed superior translation would be "God called the firmament Heavens").

And if you do not have a word distinction to show, then let us know which Bible versions have Genesis 1:8 correct, per Brian. ie. What versions translate Genesis 1:8 with the plural that you claim is the proper English.

Note: literally hundreds of similar verses could be discussed.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

PS
For the forum, if we have to put so much effort in with Brian as something as simple as this, shamayim, clearly it is understandable how the understanding of the "faith of Christ" as distinct from "faith in Christ" is seemingly totally beyond his grasp. Nevertheless, for the readers, since we have many excellent threads about that distinction, grammar and exegesis, and with Matthew Henry and other good helps available for discussion, and hopefully more insight today, that will be planned to be continued on another thread dedicated to "faith of Christ". Probably one in progress earlier, or a new thred, rather than being buried a bit on this thread. The information is too vital.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by againstheresies

I am interested in hearing reasons why you reject the NKJV. The only valid argument I have heard to date is that some people prefer the plural pronouns of the KJV. This is an archaic convention that is no longer used in modern English and is not a critical factor for me, but I will grant this is a valid objection however weak it may be. I would like to hear some more substantive arguments as to why you specifically reject the NKJV. I think it is an excellent translation that is worthy of your consideration. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Againstheresies, your use of the NKJV in your signature is inappropriate on a site such as this. No one here wants to read from your wannabe bible. I would no sooner read that text than I would the New World Translation.

It is clear that the only reason your here is to further sow your seed of doubt concerning our beloved Scriptures. IIRC you were asked once before to use the King James Bible in your signature if you were going to quote Scripture; this was when it was a passage from the Geneva text. Now you've moved on to the NKJV. Could you either move on to the real Holy Bible, or move on and away from this site? You are have not proven to be a contributing member of this community.

Stephen

[PB1789]

I think that "againstheresies" was banned... Maybe not..?

If you click on his name, then ---> Profile Page --- It says his/hers-? last activitiy was in July. I remember asking the same question of him/her as to why be on a pro-AV website if you use the NKJV for a signature... There was no reply to that.

This Thread laid dormant since March,,, then it got started again by post #114 this December. Looks like "Brian T" has decided to wander over here and take up the Mitt and ball and stand on the Pitcher's Mound after "againstheresies" was sent back to the locker room.

I read many pages of this Thread and I think that "Diligent's" replies to him were very good. I liked "Jerry's" posts on this Thread also, and wish he would get back on here and Post more on this site.

----- ---- ---- ---- -----

When I started reading the Thread it was still the 4th Sunday in Advent. Heard a very good Sermon today on Advent season ( Prepare for the coming of the Promised Messiah) , it was from Luke 1. Zachariah was visited by an Angel and told that Elisabeth would have a child...{ Hint: -- Camel hair coat.} Excellent message! God's Will be done. I would suggest to anyone reading this Thread to turn over to Luke 1:39-56... This is a beautiful portion of Scripture! Rich! Deep! Profound! It will give comfort to your soul.

[Will Kinney]

Originally Posted by BrianT

Hi all,



So you're saying the scripture was always correct, even though it is plural in Hebrew, but its an error to retain the plural when translating. Sorry, but that's not exactly convincing.

Is the idea that Gen 1:1 is an overview really such a "length"? I am not arguing that the KJV is wrong, I am challenging the idea that it is wrong to translate the plural as a plural in this verse. If the KJV translated it as a plural, and the NKJV as a singular, I have no doubt that you would be opposing translating the plural Hebrew as a singular in this instance.

God bless,
Brian

Yes, Brian. It is wrong to translate "heaven" as "heavens" in Genesis 1:1.

The first error in the NKJV, NIV, NASB and many other modern versions is found in the first verse. "In the beginning God created the HEAVEN and the earth." Notice it is the heaven - singular. This is the reading of the King James Bible, Wycliffe, 1395, Coverdale 1535, Bishops' Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible, the Revised Version, the Jewish Pub. Society translation of 1917 and Hebrew Publishing Company of 1936, Webster's 1833 translation, the Diodati and modern Italian, Douay, 21st Century KJV and the Bible in Basic English of 1965.

However the NKJV, RSV, NASB, NIV, ESV, Youngs, and the Holman Standard have the HEAVENS - plural. There are three heavens mentioned in Scripture. The third heaven is where God and His throne are now. Paul tells us he was caught up to the third heaven, into paradise and heard words not lawful for man to utter - 2 Cor. 12: 2-4. The second heaven is where the sun, moon, stars are physically located and the first heaven is the realm of the clouds, flying birds and wind.

But notice that what God created in verse 1 is the heaven (singular) and the earth. The heaven where the fowl fly, clouds form and winds blow was not created until the second day in verse 8. "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." You see, in verse one there was only one heaven created by God and it wasn't until the second day that God made the firmament to divide the waters under the firmament from those above it. Thus we have the seas below and the rain clouds above.

The King James Bible is correct in saying In the beginning God created the heaven (singular) and the earth. The modern versions that say "heavens" are incorrect.

Will K