[atlas]

Luke,


Now Luke I count you as a friend and a brother in Christ. I had to post it because it was so bad. I had no choice. Many folks like Ruckman and need to know the truth. The truth is what matters in any issue. I stand for what is right and oppose what wrong. I do not fallow a man when he leaves the Bible I do not care who this man is.

I have defended Ruckman on every issue other than this and UFO's. UFO's are not a big issue, this is. You can see my many post here where I defend Dr. Ruckman and you know this is true, however Ruckman is not my leader. The Lord is my Leader, NOT ANY MAN. I will not defend any man when he is wrong, I do not care who the man is. Right is right and wrong is wrong. The man is not the issue. The issue is right and wrong. Abortion is wrong If you do not like that, well to bad for you. If Ruckman was here I'd tell him the same thing. Like it or not, sin is sin and wrong is wrong. So if you are mad at me for posting this there is nothing I can do about it my friend. Let every man learn the truth. The truth will always hurt someone., but the truth is what we all need.

I hope this post dose not offend you, however I will post the truth. You can take it as you will my friend.

I really wish you had waited until I got a hold of the entire sermon before you posted this.

Why do you need to hear the rest of it. Are you afraid of the truth.? I'm not. Here are the word for word quotes. What else needs to said. He is very plain on what he believes and why.

He takes Gen. 2:7 and tries to apply it to every man or woman ever born. This is so far out of context it's beyond crazy.

NOT ONE PERSON WAS EVER BORN THE WAY ADAM WAS MADE. THEREFORE YOU CAN NOT APPLY Gen. 2:7 TO ANY MAN OTHER THAN ADAM.

You can not apply Gen 2:7 to any man other than Adam. This is crazy, he is so far off base on this he is not even in the ball park. He is wrongly dividing the word of God on this issue.

How can any man apply gen 2:7 to a child born today.

God did not make the kids today out of dust did he? Did God breath life into a child born today? No he did not. This is one of the worst cases of WRONGLY DEVIDING Word of God I have ever seen. This is on the scale of any apostate Bible corrector. This is beyond bad and needs to be exposed for what it is. FALSE DOCTRIUNE & WRONGLY DIVIDING GOD'S WORD.

On the MP3 file at 29 seconds he says,

I teach ta baby is not a living soul until it breaths

MP3 file 42 seconds

and so I don't teach that abortion is murder like the brethren do

It starts back again on the MP3 file at 2:54

abortion is murder, abortion is murder they show you pitchers. What are they trying to prove? They are trying to prove that the thing looks like a person it is a person. That is what Darwin taught. You've got to watch that business.

Why are you afraid of the truth? I do not fear the truth. Why not stand up and oppose this for what it is? Why not expose it for what it is?

Here is the truth, RUCKMAN IS 100% WRONG!!!

As an example, if Benny Henn said this you'd be over him. If some other preacher said it you'd do the same. If Ruckman says it, oh well maybe I should not have posted it. Why not wrong is wrong no matter who says it. He is 100% wrong, he is out of line and wrongly dividing God's Word. If you can not see this you are brainwashed.


This wrong I do not care who says it. No person can rightly divide the Word of God and apply how Adam was made to how we are made.

Listen to it all, this is beyond sick. This is the worst case I have ever seen in my life. This is so bad it is on the scale of any Bible corrector you can name. This is how bad it is.



Atlas

[Biblestudent]

(I just made a comment in another thread before I saw this one.)

Originally Posted by atlas

He is very plain on what he believes and why.

That's why Ruckman is still one of my most FAVORITE preachers!

Originally Posted by atlas

He takes Gen. 2:7 and tries to apply it to every man or woman ever born. This is so far out of context it's beyond crazy.

NOT ONE PERSON WAS EVER BORN THE WAY ADAM WAS MADE. THEREFORE YOU CAN NOT APPLY Gen. 2:7 TO ANY MAN OTHER THAN ADAM.

You can not apply Gen 2:7 to any man other than Adam. This is crazy, he is so far off base on this he is not even in the ball park. He is wrongly dividing the word of God on this issue.

Good point, there Bro. Atlas!

I have always been a fan of Dr. Ruckman, just like I'm a fan of Polycarp, Martin Luther, Billy Sunday, John R. Rice, Jack Hyles, etc. etc. That doesn't guarantee, however, that all of them rightly divides the word of truth all of the time.

One thing that I admire Ruckman is that he's always been Ruckman - he would never compromise truth for fear of "the brethren". Now, again, he may be wrong in many issues and I've not always agreed with him, but (as Atlas says) he is "VERY PLAIN ON WHAT HE BELIEVES AND WHY".

I think the KEY here is RIGHT DIVISION.

Originally Posted by atlas

Now Luke I count you as a friend and a brother in Christ. I had to post it because it was so bad. I had no choice. Many folks like Ruckman and need to know the truth. The truth is what matters in any issue. I stand for what is right and oppose what wrong. I do not fallow a man when he leaves the Bible I do not care who this man is.

I have defended Ruckman on every issue other than this and UFO's. UFO's are not a big issue, this is. You can see my many post here where I defend Dr. Ruckman and you know this is true, however Ruckman is not my leader. The Lord is my Leader, NOT ANY MAN. I will not defend any man when he is wrong, I do not care who the man is. Right is right and wrong is wrong. The man is not the issue. The issue is right and wrong. Abortion is wrong If you do not like that, well to bad for you. If Ruckman was here I'd tell him the same thing. Like it or not, sin is sin and wrong is wrong. So if you are mad at me for posting this there is nothing I can do about it my friend. Let every man learn the truth. The truth will always hurt someone., but the truth is what we all need.

Brother, I agree with every word you've said. If Ruckman says something wrong, he shouldn't be followed in that area. There are subjects where I don't agree with him 100%; and, if the quote you posted - - - from an unusually brief video clip - - - represents all of his thinking on this subject, then he's wrong.

However, I repeat: we needn't jump on a brother just because he doesn't use the word "murder." (I don't use it myself; I consider it manslaughter or homicide. Why? Because I tend to think in legal terms. Certainly not because I'm "soft" on abortion: I hope nobody jumps to that conclusion, because I feel as strongly about abortion as anyone in this forum.) Why is the single word "murder" so important to some people?

Why do you need to hear the rest of it. Are you afraid of the truth.? I'm not. Here are the word for word quotes. What else needs to said. He is very plain on what he believes and why.

We do need to hear the rest of it, if we're to judge righteous judgment, and not merely react to a snippet of a full-length sermon. As a preacher, I wouldn't want anyone judging me from such a short segment. He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him (Pro. 18:13).

He takes Gen. 2:7 and tries to apply it to every man or woman ever born. This is so far out of context it's beyond crazy.

NOT ONE PERSON WAS EVER BORN THE WAY ADAM WAS MADE. THEREFORE YOU CAN NOT APPLY Gen. 2:7 TO ANY MAN OTHER THAN ADAM.

You can not apply Gen 2:7 to any man other than Adam. This is crazy, he is so far off base on this he is not even in the ball park. He is wrongly dividing the word of God on this issue.

How can any man apply gen 2:7 to a child born today.

God did not make the kids today out of dust did he? Did God breath life into a child born today? No he did not. This is one of the worst cases of WRONGLY DEVIDING Word of God I have ever seen. This is on the scale of any apostate Bible corrector. This is beyond bad and needs to be exposed for what it is.

Brother, you sound very emotional, and very upset, in this post; perhaps I'm wrong. But you needn't overstate your case. Saying that Ruckman is in the same ball park as Bible correctors is pretty harsh.

Here is the truth, RUCKMAN IS 100% WRONG!!!

As an example, if Benny Henn said this you'd be over him. If some other preacher said it you'd do the same. If Ruckman says it, oh well maybe I should not have posted it. Why not wrong is wrong no matter who says it. He is 100% wrong, he is out of line and wrongly dividing God's Word. If you can not see this you are brainwashed.

I hope I'm not brainwashed; I never heard Ruckman's name until I was in my 30s, and when I attended PBI, I was turning 40. Let's just cut to the chase:

If Ruckman says that abortion is not a grievous sin, then he's absolutely wrong. If Ruckman "excuses" abortion, he's horribly wrong. And, when I hear his remarks in their full context, I'll judge for myself.

I have heard Ruckman speak of the evolutionists' "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" mantra, which involves "proving" evolution from fetal development. That may have been where he was headed in this sermon; but I simply don't know yet.

No offense intended in this post, Brother Atlas. I appreciate and respect you.

[atlas]

Vendetta Ride,

Well buddy I can not even find the rest of the message. I do not even know what the name of it is. If you have it all send it to me I'll hear any man out.

Brother, you sound very emotional, and very upset,

I am very upset, I was blew away by the fact that he believes this crap. I would have never thought he would take this stand on the issue that abortion is not murder and base this on Gen 2:7 out of context. What he did say was very easy to understand.

This is a big issue brother. There have been many babies killed, 50,000,000 it the number. This is not a small issue brother. This is a deal.


Atlas

Originally Posted by atlas

Vendetta Ride,

Well buddy I can not even find the rest of the message. I do not even know what the name of it is. If you have it all send it to me I'll hear any man out.



I am very upset, I was blew away by the fact that he believes this crap. I would have never thought he would take this stand on the issue that abortion is not murder and base this on Gen 2:7 out of context. What he did say was very easy to understand.

This is a big issue brother. There have been many babies killed, 50,000,000 it the number. This is not a small issue brother. This is a deal.


Atlas

I know how big the issue is. Several people in my own life (one in my own family) have been touched by it. It's horrible.

I don't know what sermon the clip comes from. The "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" stuff (his disproof of that theory) is in his Science and Philosophy book. And he's made an entire series of videos on Evolution, as you know.

[George]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

I know how big the issue is. Several people in my own life (one in my own family) have been touched by it. It's horrible.

I don't know what sermon the clip comes from. The "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" stuff (his disproof of that theory) is in his Science and Philosophy book. And he's made an entire series of videos on Evolution, as you know.

Aloha brother Vendetta,

I too believe that brother Atlas has gotten only a part of what brother Ruckman believes about abortion. You went to his school and I am sure that you know him fairly well. I have known him since 1968 and have read at least 80 or more of his books over 40 years. {I read probably 90% of those books from 1968-1988}. I also had nearly his entire curriculum (from PBI 1970-73) on reel-to-reel tape; plus hundreds of hours of his preaching tapes (1970-73).

I met him in 1973 when he spent a week on Oahu and he spent more time with my family than he did with the preachers from the church (and he spent more time talking to our 6 year old daughter {Naomi} than he did anyone else!)

I am in agreement with you (and I have stated it before on this Forum) - I do not agree with everything that brother Ruckman teaches and would never justify any wrong doing on his part (if proven - not something taken out of context).

I've said all of this to testify: that in all of brother Ruckman's books, booklets, etc. that I have read; and in all of the preaching and teaching tapes that I have heard (minimum 3,000 hours); and in all the time that I spent with him when he came to Hawaii - I have NEVER read or heard him ever justify abortion! Nor have I ever read or heard him ever excuse it or make light of it!

I have read in several of his books and booklets where he has condemned abortion (in no uncertain terms)! Knowing brother Ruckman as I do, I know that he does not base his belief about abortion on just one verse (Genesis 2:7)!

It is this rush to condemn a fellow brother in Christ (before thoroughly examining the matter) that disturbs me and I cannot just stand idly by while there are some brethren who will condemn him without having the entire quote (in context) and all the rest of his testimony (from his books, etc.) on this issue.

If I was not engaged in moving from Hawaii (after 50 years here) I would be able to fully present my position on this issue (from the Scriptures) and give the scriptural reasons why I believe as I do. I posted some comments on man's "spirit" in order for the brethren to see that this issue is far more "complex" than just one verse from Genesis -which verse (or a portion) has been rejected "out of hand" by Atlas as applying to any of Adam's descendants without any other Scriptural support.

I have a hard time understanding the rejection of just "a portion" of this Scripture as applying to all of mankind, since it is one of the few Scriptures {along with 1Thessalonians 5:23} that clearly show the three parts (Substance) of man {body, soul, & spirit}. If - Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. - is true (And I don't doubt it for one minute), then why state "out of hand" that a portion of this Scripture applies only to Adam and not the rest of mankind (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.")? If, on the other hand, a portion of the Scripture (that man's "substance" consists of a body, soul, & spirit) is accepted? The question arises: If only a portion of this Scripture applies only to Adam - then WHY doesn't the rest (or all) of the verse apply only to Adam as well, and NOT the rest of mankind?

In order to even begin to understand when man becomes a living soul, or when he receives his spirit, a thorough study of all 134 verses about man's spirit; and the approximate 498 verses about man's soul must be searched out and compared. And not only that, but there must also be a comparison of the relation of breath & life; blood & life; and the word & life.

We need Scripture to base our beliefs on - NOT opinion! This subject is extremely complex and no one should be condemning anyone else, unless they can prove with Scriptures, that what a man believes is untrue or false.

I personally would never break fellowship with a brother in Christ if he held an opinion that differed with mine on this issue, UNLESS - someone taught that abortion was NOT a sin; or that it is an acceptable practice; or that the Bible approves of it: or that a child within the womb is "just a fetus", and not a person; or that God approves of it, etc.

To condemn a Christian because he believes (based on his scriptural understanding) that abortion is manslaughter instead of murder and to say that someone who holds that position must APPROVE of abortion is to "falsely accuse" that brother of something he does NOT believe!

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by atlas

Vendetta Ride,

Well buddy I can not even find the rest of the message. I do not even know what the name of it is. If you have it all send it to me I'll hear any man out.



I am very upset, I was blew away by the fact that he believes this crap. I would have never thought he would take this stand on the issue that abortion is not murder and base this on Gen 2:7 out of context. What he did say was very easy to understand.

This is a big issue brother. There have been many babies killed, 50,000,000 it the number. This is not a small issue brother. This is a deal.


Atlas

I just think you and others are hurt because it is Ruckman that said those things (that is, he should know better). Perhaps someone should let him know what he's done to the Church with his statements. I think if he were to realize the damage he's done, he might repent. Just and idea...

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[chette777]

Atlas,

I have written Dr Ruckman a few times and he will answer your honest inquirey. I suggest you write him include the quote and it sorce and let him give you his explanation.

I think you will find some how or another he is not suporting abortion and he may be able to clear up the whole mess for you.

I have his address on JoJo street there in Pensecola FL if you need it.

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by atlas

This is a big issue brother. There have been many babies killed, 50,000,000 it the number. This is not a small issue brother. This is a deal.
Atlas

The issue, in your words, is "Peter Ruckman stance on abortion."

As to that issue (thread topic), many have posted and assured you that Peter Ruckman is against abortion.

May I add that I've personally sat under his teaching on the very subject. He first (as always) informs everyone of what "the brethren" (atlas in this case, specifically) accuse him of teaching, and then expounds on what he really believes and teaches. These are often two different things (abortion and inspiration being probably the top two).

Now, you (many of you) do not agree with his teaching of when the baby becomes a living soul. That's understandable, and I don't fault you (any of you) for your belief. However, what is not acceptable is that you are suggesting that he is okay with the practice. He is not. Never has he recommended to two fornicating teenagers to "Go get an abortion, it's not murder." Yet this is how you are painting "the issue" - into another "issue."

The issue that you are essentially making is that Ruckman is for (pro) abortion. (???) You have already mentioned him being pro-abortion on another thread haven't you?

This suggestion about Dr. Ruckman is untrue - and that is the "issue" that you were starting the thread about.

Now you're talking about the millions of babies - which is not the issue. The issue is his stance.

His stance is that abortion is wrong and sin.
His stance is that it is no one's right to kill the unborn child.
His stance is that abortion is killing potential preachers and missionaries that God could use for His glory.

You may dissaggree with his view on a living soul, but the length that you are taking this to, with the aggressive nature of your posts on the topic, is wrong, you know, 100% wrong!!!

[Forrest]

Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.