[Debau]

Originally Posted by Revangelist

To be clear, I’m not saying every Scripture I’ve quoted concerning this subject teaches one can lose their salvation (some do more than others). I tend to agree with the doctrine up and to the point of saying there is no way you can lose, forfeit or otherwise walk away from your salvation.

(Huh?)

That would be very extreme and illogical. The doctrine of eternal security is excessive, hyperbole and exaggerated because of the number of Scriptures that call that doctrine into question. If the doctrine were absolutely undeniably true, then the Scriptures would support it conclusively. They do not. [/I].

Now I am confused. Not being sarcastic.
I would like to know the point of this extended thread.
If you are dogmatic on your point, why contend anymore?
Maybe you could clarify "up and to the point". Isn't it you believe either can, or cannot lose your salvation?
Are you maybe wavering?

[Diligent]

It is astounding to me that someone could trust on Christ's finished work only to then live a life afraid to presume that they are wholly, completely, eternally, and unconditionally saved. And frankly, if I have any part in "keeping" my salvation, I am so utterly lost that I may as well just take down this website and find a new line of work. I am so completely unworthy of the eternal life that God has promised me that I know if there is any chance I could lose it, I will.

I cannot imagine living in fear that I must be careful not to do whatever it is somebody thinks they can "do" to lose the seal of the Holy Spirit!


And how arrogant I would have to be to assume that I have the power to break the seal of the holy Spirit of promise!

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

And how arrogant would I have to be to assume that I could stand in the way of the praise of God's glory! For that is what the seal is for: in the end, it is for God's glory! How dare I assume that I have the power to not only break the seal of the holy Spirit of promise but to also take God's glory away from him!

And why oh why would we have such wonderfully comforting verses like these:

Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Indeed, who shall separate us from the love of Christ? According to the "once saved maybe later lost" crowed, apparently I will! And if my "choice" to walk away from God isn't a "thing present" or a "thing to come" then what is it? Was Paul just wrong?

All of the verses that could be understand to contradict the finished and eternal nature of salvation must be understood not to contradict Paul's clear teaching in Romans 8. It is that simple.

If you think a verse teaches that you can some how break God's seal then you are simply and completely wrong wrong wrong. I do not care how hard it is to understand a verse (2Pe 3:16), if you think a verse means you can take God's glory away from him by walking away from salvation, you are simply out to lunch.

[Diligent]

I've renamed this thread and moved it.

[George]

Originally Posted by Paladin54

And help me brothers, this verse has not been brought up, to my knowledge.

Matthew 12:31-32
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

Brothers, help me out here!

Aloha brother,

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Verse 30 defines "the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost". Anyone who says (or attributes)that the Spirit that was in the Lord Jesus Christ as being an unclean spirit is committing that sin.

Obviously not too many people today would say such a thing - but back when the Lord was performing signs, wonders, and miracles, it would have been far easier for some men to attribute the Spirit in Jesus Christ as being an unclean spirit.

If it is felt I’m mistaken or somehow not seeing it clearly, the following passage proves what I’ve been saying:

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

This verse casts doubt on the doctrine of eternal security (Some shall depart from the faith). That is why I believe the doctrine is extreme.

I guess I've created quite a stir. I'm definitely in the minority here. Even the host of the forum has posted here. If you'd rather I not say anything more about this subject, I will respect your wishes, since I'm your guest.

[pbiwolski]

Revangelist,

Do you believe in the rapture of the church?

Then how about the tribulation period to follow?

Last question. Do you believe the Bible will "not pass away"...(it'll be here for others after you're gone,etc.)?

Assuming you answer "yea" to all of the above, consider then that some of the Book is instructing those in the future, just as much is instruction for the past (i.e. sabbath, dietary laws, etc.).

The majority of the basis for your statements are founded upon the missapplication of someone else's doctrine.

Originally Posted by Revangelist

If it is felt I’m mistaken or somehow not seeing it clearly, the following passage proves what I’ve been saying:

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

It is referring to apostasy - a lost person who knowingly rejects the truth, not a saved person who became unsaved. "The faith" is the body of doctrines that the NT believer clings to. The Bible prophecies a time of apostasy prior to Christ's return. Our society overall is departing from the faith. More and more religious people, but less true believers.

Yes I believe in a pre-trib, pre-millennial application of the Scriptures. I understand about dispensationalism. I'm dispensational in my interpretation of Scripture. I also believe the Bible should be taken literally unless the context says otherwise. As far as 1st Timothy 4:1 in concerned, yes I know it is talking about faith in regards to Christian doctrine. But I believe that not only is it referring to people rejecting the truth before salvation, but also anyone who departs from the faith, whether saved or not. We've all seen it happen, people serve God for a certain period of time, and then walk away from it. I remember a man coming to me who gave up his Assemblies of God credentials to join the Roman Catholic Church. That shook me up enough that I wrote a book called, "Why I'm Not A Roman Catholic".

But before I get too detailed, I'm waiting to hear back if the host of this forum wants me to quit this line of discussion. He wasn't to happy with my posts (at least that is how it came across to me). He has offered a place for these discussions and his say-so is "law" and I respect that.

[atlas]

Guys,

God saved me and is keeping me saved. Revangelist and others have yet to tell us how they keep themselves saved. I told him about peter " walking away " yet he has not said the Peter " lost it. " If you could lose it Peter would have. When you deny Christ before others that is " walking away " if I have ever heard of it. Peter did not get resaved as well all know. peter never " lost it. " He kept saying if you " walk away. " I gave him Bible for a man that did. He will not address this issue with Peter. Therefore I am finished with this topic unless he will address the Peter issue.

They are just like all of the rest. They just want to add good works to salvation. they get saved without works. They just have to " keep it " with good works. Without good works they can not get to heaven, or so they say. Salvation has nothing to do with works. Sadly they do not know that. They want to work there way to heaven. Any man that goes to heaven will go because of the finished work of Jesus, not any works they have done.


Atlas

Works has noting to do with salvation, we both know that. I addressed all your questions already. I'm not like "all the rest". That would be like me saying you "are like all the rest..."

You've proved nothing. I've given Scripture after Scripture. I don't feel obligated to answer anymore of your questions since I'm not going to change your mind, that's obvious. You aren't going to change mind either. I believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The only "work" I have to do is accept it. You are telling me I can't reject it later, that I'm saved no matter what or else I wasn't saved in the first place (and I have no plans on rejecting it later either). So be it. But I don't see it that way. So, I'm with you. Let's drop it. It isn't bearing good fruit and some of you are getting upset by it. So, let's drop it.