[pneuby]

Originally Posted by George

"GRACE" - (GRACE = God's Riches At Christ's Expese
JUSTIFIED (JUSTIFIED = Just as if I never sinned).

Originally Posted by George

Brother, if any one " thinks they have "anything" to do with their Salvation (other than "believing")...
they "deserve" whatever God has "in store" for them at the Judgment ("Judgment Seat of Christ" or the "Great White Throne").

George, I hope you don't hold copyright on those two acronyms, as I intend to wholly appropriate them shamelessly for my own use, LOL!

As to your second point, I wholly agree with the preface. However, I think the latter portion will be as any other sin....forever washed away. There may be some lack of reward experienced over it, I don't know.

That's why I don't have much trouble with a typical Southern Baptist "Sinner's Prayer", in whatever derivative you may have heard it. As a rule, there is normally a sincer attempt to point out just WHAT it is that you're SUPPOSED to believe in. That is, that Christ is God, Son, Messiah, the ONLY way, and that his sacrifice was all that is/was needed.

Indeed, we've discussed this at my church many times. There will no doubt be any number of Catholics, perhaps a couple JW's, and even....gads!..Mormons in heaven with us. Maybe even an outlaw biker or two?

[Renee]

posted by pneuby#3

Indeed, we've discussed this at my church many times. There will no doubt be any number of Catholics, perhaps a couple JW's, and even....gads!..Mormons in heaven with us. Maybe even an outlaw biker or two?

You left out the prefix ex. Only ex Catholics, ex Mormons, ex JW's. I for one will be one of those Saved by the blood exCatholics. Praise the Lord!

Renee

[George]

Originally Posted by pneuby

George, I hope you don't hold copyright on those two acronyms, as I intend to wholly appropriate them shamelessly for my own use, LOL!

As to your second point, I wholly agree with the preface. However, I think the latter portion will be as any other sin....forever washed away. There may be some lack of reward experienced over it, I don't know.

That's why I don't have much trouble with a typical Southern Baptist "Sinner's Prayer", in whatever derivative you may have heard it. As a rule, there is normally a sincer attempt to point out just WHAT it is that you're SUPPOSED to believe in. That is, that Christ is God, Son, Messiah, the ONLY way, and that his sacrifice was all that is/was needed.

Indeed, we've discussed this at my church many times. There will no doubt be any number of Catholics, perhaps a couple JW's, and even....gads!..Mormons in heaven with us. Maybe even an outlaw biker or two?

Aloha brother,

I wish that I could take credit for both of them but they were very popular in the 1970's (I have no idea who originated them) - maybe they have fallen out of favor?

Since God is the only one in the Universe that can tell what is in a person's heart - I leave it up to Him as to who is saved and who is not. I just know that there is only one way to the Father:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Any "other way" is COUNTERFEIT & FALSE! And at this point in the history of the world, there are so many false "christian" religions (most originating in America - Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Cambellites, christian science, etc., etc.) that is getting more and more difficult for people to discern just exactly who is a Christian and who is not. Personally I think that the "bikers" stand a better chance!

[Debau]

Posted by pneuby
"As to your second point, I wholly agree with the preface. However, I think the latter portion will be as any other sin....forever washed away. There may be some lack of reward experienced over it, I don't know."

George's 2nd point
And they "deserve" whatever God has "in store" for them at the Judgment ("Judgment Seat of Christ" or the "Great White Throne").

Maybe I'm reading this wrong. Is not this statement (pneuby's) typical of those who have not the proper fear of loss at the Bema judgment. Our sins ARE washed away, but our service WILL be judged.

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

That's why I don't have much trouble with a typical Southern Baptist "Sinner's Prayer", in whatever derivative you may have heard it. As a rule, there is normally a sincer attempt to point out just WHAT it is that you're SUPPOSED to believe in. That is, that Christ is God, Son, Messiah, the ONLY way, and that his sacrifice was all that is was needed.

There will no doubt be any number of Catholics, perhaps a couple JW's, and even....gads!..Mormons in heaven with us. Maybe even an outlaw biker or two?

I'm not sure what the SB's prayer is, but if it is not in "repentance", coming into agreement before a holy God of our estate before Him, that we are lost and undone sinners worthy of only His wrath, in need of the Saviour, we can believe in our heads that Christ is God, Son, Messiah, the ONLY way, but His sacrifice will be of none effect until we KNOW we are sinners, trusting in in only His finished redeeming work at the cross. Trusting in our hearts that He bore all our sins and incurred the wrath we deserve. Understanding what the "ONLY way" is, and that it excludes us doing anything but believing. The JW and Catholic will probably still be trusting in his own ability to do something of worth to reconcile himself to God. The biker seems to understand his position of a rebel as a badge of honor, or something. He has to see his rebellion for what it is too.

Maybe Mr. Washer confuses our good works unto Him as a condition for salvation. Unfortunately, we can believe, and live more carnally than the heathen. What loss we should suffer! I didn't watch the whole video, but I think I got the gist.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

i think you guys are missing the whole of the message. i loved the message, paul never said salvation is anything that we do, he merely brought up that if you are born again, you are a new creature, and you WILL behave differently, you WILL have a change of heart, and it will be entirely because we are born again and are new people in Christ Jesus..

see, paulwasher is schooled in something that is not taught much today, holiness. we are made holy in God's eyes by the sacrifice of Christ on calvary. however as eph. 2 points out God has ordained good works for us that we should walk in them. all the things paul talked about in that sermon are acts of holiness. yes, paul washer is a 5 point calvinist, not that you'd know that from hearing that message. and yes he believes things i don't agree with, but in that message [modern american Christianity], he is calling the church back to holiness. we are just a step away from showing up in church wearing next to nothing. in fact some people today already show up like that.

what did he say that was so bad? he didn't doubt everyone's salvation in that auditorium what he did was wake them up with the truth that we are called to be separate from the world. that we are to live a life of separation and holiness. and are to rebel against sin, and cling to Jesus Christ

[Luke]

Did he tell anyone in that audience how to actually get saved if they weren't.

No, he didn't, and I'll tell you why.

He is a 5 point calvinist who believes that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved. He believes that God will save whoever God chooses, and that this was decreed before the foundation of the world. He believes that if he was to stop persevering, it would be a sign that he was never saved in the first place.

He explains this very clearly in another sermon, giving a testimony of a man who wanted to be saved, but felt that he couldn't, because he "felt no change wrought in him". Mr Washer then says "that man has better theology than most baptist pastors in America". So Mr Washer proceeds to go through the gospel with the man until suddenly, after reading John 3:16 for the hundredth time, a feeling comes over him and he starts shouting that he is saved. His sermons are all done with a high pitched wavy, shaky voice, half crying most of the time, and it comes across as showing compassion sometimes, but other times, one could accuse him of charasmatic emotionalism.

You think Paul Washer is schooled in this "unknown doctrine" of Holiness? Do you even know what independent baptists stand for? Seperation & Holiness. Some of them take it even further than Mr Washer, who claims in his sermon "What is the Gospel" - "I am not against mixed swimming or anything like that". If Paul Washer is so holy, why is he preaching against a backdrop of electric guitars and drums?

As I have said (maybe not in this thread, please forgive me), I think that the sermon raises a lot of good points, but it goes about the wrong way to do so. Works are not evidence of salvation. Faith is. Sinners can do good works before men. It is not evidence that they are saved. Sinners can have joy and peace, but it's not evidence that they are saved. The only evidence a man is saved is that he has faith in Jesus Christ.

[scott]

Originally Posted by Luke

He is a 5 point calvinist who believes that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved.[/

Somebody please explain to me the last part of that statement ...."he believes that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved".... there is a lot more to these debates than what I understand, but I can tell you one thing, the MOMENT I was saved, I didn't have to have anybody tell me I was saved, I KNEW it [AMEN]

Works are not evidence of salvation. Faith is

I thought faith without works was dead....I also thought Jesus said, by their fruits you shall know them....Am I not understanding the basis of this debate??

God Bless, Scott

[Luke]

Scott, are you sinless? Do you always put God first in your life? Have you repented of all your sins? Do you repent every single day? Do you believe God CHOSE to save you, apart from any decision you made to accept Him as Saviour? Do you believe God CHOSE you, for no reason, and doesn't choose others, just to prove He is "sovereign", and full of so called "grace".

That's the argument here. It's not REALLY about calvinism (but whenever Lordship Salvation comes into the fray, Calvinism is usually there, waving it's banner).

The man preaching the message claims that a true Christian is one that repents of their sins every single day, and has committed their life to Christ, and endures to the end, and does the work of God. Yet we can find countless examples of men in the Bible who did the opposite of that, and yet are counted righteous. Lot for example. There is no evidence of him being righteous before God in the Old Testament (the complete opposite is evident), but the New Testament says he was a just man (justified).

So the issue at hand is whether or not that is true. Must a "True Christian" continue in good works to be saved, and prove his salvation. I am not asking "Will a true Christian continue", but "MUST". Are works after salvation a requirement of eternal security. If they are, then it is not eternal security at all, but conditional security.

It's funny how people add works to salvation when they feel like it, and then claim salvation by faith alone elsewhere.

Either it's FAITH alone, or WORKS.

There is none of this "Saved by Faith, preserved by works business, all the while claiming faith alone". That makes no sense. It's either Faith, or Works. There is no middle ground.

[scott]

Since you addressed me by name, I'll say hello, Luke....in answer to your question [am I sinless?] the Bible says:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I am a minister in a denomination [even though Baptist] that does not believe eternal security although I do believe if you are saved, you are saved [in other words, I personally believe in eternal security]...salvation is a gift of God, by grace through faith....faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God....etc...I also believe when a person is saved, there is a change in that person, wrought by God [regeneration]. Again the Bible says:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The Bible also says:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

This doesn't mean we can't sin or won't backslide--salvation is eternal, our relationship with the Lord is day to day, moment to moment....but the question is, if I'm understanding you, can a person be saved and there be absolutely no change in him....If that is the opposite of Calvanism, I must be a "10 point Calvanist" [and I have NO idea what that means]....again, I'm not real bright, but I'm trying to learn--you never really answered my question which was:

Somebody please explain to me the last part of that statement ...."he believes that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved"....

God bless, Scott