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  #21  
Old 02-24-2009, 09:42 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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I think people see death as physical corruption.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

This verse says Jesus saw no corruption. However, we know he died.

Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Now, what does forsaken mean? It means to be abandoned, or separated from.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Last edited by Winman; 02-24-2009 at 09:47 PM.
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  #22  
Old 02-24-2009, 10:50 PM
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Kiwi Christian Kiwi Christian is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Kiwi Christian

OK, first of all, I am no Bible scholar like many here. I am just a simple fellow who reads God's Word and asks God to help me understand it.
Amen. From one student of the word to another then.

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Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Now notice, that not only did they realize they were naked, suddenly they became fearful of God. They hid and were separated from God.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


So, you see here they were separated from God...
I understand all that, but I don't believe that their separation and hiding from God here is the "death" the Lord told Adam would occur if he sinned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman
I think people see death as physical corruption.
In some cases it is, but not always, as Bro. George demonstrated in a recent post.

I think of death as the ending of life, yet whatever has died can still exist on, it doesn't have to disappear, it just doesn't live, but God can bring it back to life again, just like our bodies in the rapture if we die beforehand! The second death is the eternal damnation of the soul, it's not annihilation. The damned will be wide awake and experiencing pain forever and ever, yet they are not alive, but dead.

We must study, study, study...
  #23  
Old 02-25-2009, 11:24 AM
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Shofar Shofar is offline
 
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Another question (yea, I am filled with them), from what I have seen & read of these articles concerning the reality of hell, since tormented souls are already directly below us, even now - does that mean that the fallen angels are there too? In other words, are the fallen angels confined to hell or do they have free liberty to move back & forth to the surface since the Holy Bible mentions that they, though fallen, as still made of spirit & not flesh?

Right now, I'm listening to Revelation 9 concerning the 5th trumpet. The bottomless pit opens & the locusts are unleashed to torment those that have not the seal of God 5 months; the connection of hell & bottomless pit match, but if that be the case, then the locusts would be the fallen angels set loose? But if that be true, then it would mean that they were bound since it took a heavenly angel with a key to unleash them? It is written that hell is prepared for the devil & his angels, so they would be one & the same.......Well, any insight concerning this is greatly appreciated, thanks --
  #24  
Old 02-25-2009, 01:56 PM
Bro. Parrish
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Shofar,
I am not an expert on demonology or angels, but scripture does indicate some of the fallen creatures are currently imprisoned until God's day of judgment (I Peter 3:19-20; II Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6).

Others have been given some liberty on earth and in our atmosphere, we know Satan is called the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2, Zechariah 5:1-9), and I think that even today the pagans who worship idols in many countries are in fact engaged in the direct worship of demons without realizing it. (Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 106:36-37)

Others are given the ability to interact with and control humans on a limited basis, but all are subject to the authority of Christ and they are aware of their appointment with judgment (Matthew 8:28-34, Mark 5:1-20, and Luke 8:26-33).

James 2:19 declares that even the demons believe that there is only "one God," however the demons "tremble" because they are aware of the judgment of God that they (demons) will suffer, he has prepared a place for their eternal punishment. (Matthew 25:41)

The good news is; that even the most powerful demonic locust monsters from the pit (along with the "king" that is over them) are no match for the power of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 02-25-2009 at 02:07 PM.
  #25  
Old 02-25-2009, 03:06 PM
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Shofar Shofar is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
Shofar,
I am not an expert on demonology or angels, but scripture does indicate some of the fallen creatures are currently imprisoned until God's day of judgment (I Peter 3:19-20; II Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6).

Others have been given some liberty on earth and in our atmosphere, we know Satan is called the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2, Zechariah 5:1-9), and I think that even today the pagans who worship idols in many countries are in fact engaged in the direct worship of demons without realizing it. (Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 106:36-37)

Others are given the ability to interact with and control humans on a limited basis, but all are subject to the authority of Christ and they are aware of their appointment with judgment (Matthew 8:28-34, Mark 5:1-20, and Luke 8:26-33).

James 2:19 declares that even the demons believe that there is only "one God," however the demons "tremble" because they are aware of the judgment of God that they (demons) will suffer, he has prepared a place for their eternal punishment. (Matthew 25:41)

The good news is; that even the most powerful demonic locust monsters from the pit (along with the "king" that is over them) are no match for the power of our Lord Jesus Christ!
Hi Bro. Parrish, thank you for the biblical references, I will make note to review them further when I am finished with work for the day. It's beginning to make more sense, I caught something of interest in Revelation 12 how the devil was cast out into the earth & his angels were cast out with him. You do bring up an interesting point, on how some are bound while others are not bound; one would think to see them all bound, but I guess there are reasons for why things are currently how they are.
  #26  
Old 02-26-2009, 03:18 PM
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MC1171611 MC1171611 is offline
 
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Being that this is one of my pet subjects, I figured I'd say something on this...but being that I'm currently in my zombie mode I won't be able to say much.

Genesis 6 talks about either satanic or even holy angelic beings (the sons of God) that left their first estate and cohabited with humans, producing a race of super-human giants and mutants.

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2Pet. 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

There are two groups of fallen creatures: one are those that were cast out with Lucifer, and those that willingly left their first estate. The first group are known as devils or demons and roam freely on the earth and through space at Satan's bidding; their eternal habitation will be the Lake of Fire..."prepared for the devil and his angels." The second group are those that apparently took on a human form and died in the Flood: these are bound in chains of darkness in Hell currently.

Ok I hope that was even slightly coherent.
  #27  
Old 02-26-2009, 03:36 PM
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Kiwi Christian Kiwi Christian is offline
 
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Originally Posted by MC1171611 View Post
The first group are known as devils or demons and roam freely on the earth and through space at Satan's bidding; their eternal habitation will be the Lake of Fire..."prepared for the devil and his angels."
This first group warrants further study. What scripture do you use to prove that devils/unclean spirits are fallen angels who will end up in the lake of fire? There could well be three groups of creatures, with your first group split into two. But that creates a bit of a mystery, where did these devils/unclean spirits originate from?
  #28  
Old 02-26-2009, 03:55 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Quote:
I think of death as the ending of life, yet whatever has died can still exist on, it doesn't have to disappear, it just doesn't live, but God can bring it back to life again, just like our bodies in the rapture if we die beforehand! The second death is the eternal damnation of the soul, it's not annihilation. The damned will be wide awake and experiencing pain forever and ever, yet they are not alive, but dead.
Oh, I agree, the dead do not cease to exist. I have a family member who belongs to a group that believes the dead will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be destroyed and cease to exist. I believe as you, that the dead will continue to exist in eternal punishment.

But notice death always involves separation.

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

And the account of the rich man:

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

In this world, the evil are not separated from God, and enjoy his blessings and mercies.

Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

So, in this life even the evil enjoy blessings from God, but in Hell they are completely separated from Him and his mercy and blessings.

The unsaved hate the true God, they do not want Him to rule over them. He simply gives them what they want. So, they spend the rest of eternity without Him.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Last edited by Winman; 02-26-2009 at 04:07 PM.
  #29  
Old 02-26-2009, 06:05 PM
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But notice death always involves separation.

So, in this life even the evil enjoy blessings from God, but in Hell they are completely separated from Him and his mercy and blessings.

So, they spend the rest of eternity without Him.
Yes that is the traditional viewpoint. So how do you handle the following passage, you would have to believe "in the presence of the Lamb" is only temporary, yet the context is "for ever and ever":

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

We believe that our God is omnipresent, but if we teach that the damned are absent from His presence therein could lie a contradiction?

Psalms 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
  #30  
Old 02-26-2009, 06:33 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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You have a point there.

However the Lord also said;

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


So, we all stand before God at the judgement, but the unsaved will be sent away.

Perhaps as with the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the unsaved can be seen, but there is a great gulf fixed.

My relative who does not believe in Hell, often asks how a person can be in a flame AND in darkness.

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

But here we see the stars composed of burning gas, yet they are also in darkness. And they are seperated by a great gulf we shall never be able to cross. Yet we can see the stars.
 

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