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  #31  
Old 03-20-2008, 05:56 AM
jerry
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I agree with what you are saying, Atlas - but a Jew is not a race, but a nationality. Race is an evolutionary term - there is only one race, the human race. There are many tribes and nationalities.

Cpmac, The Jews have a religion - but they also have a national identity. As far as the remnant goes - who are they? They are whatever Jews are saved at any given time. Study out the passages on God's "remnant."
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  #32  
Old 03-20-2008, 11:53 AM
cpmac
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Jerry:
I'm looking at what I think is a reference to the remnant, in Isaiah 6. In the same passage,
Isaiah tells us when the "Great Tribulation" occurs, and when the blindness of Israel ends.
Of course, that's my spin. Dispensationalists, I am sure, will have a different view.

v10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Isaiah tells us HOW the blindness began, but he doesn't tell, as far as I know, WHEN.

v11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
v12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
This is, without a doubt, a prediction of the Tribulation Jesus spoke of, which was to happen just before AD70. Some big time scholars, like John Macarthur, would like to tell us that this happened back in Babylonian times. Not true. Even if the details were identical, there was never any mention of blindness of the Jews. Here, Isaiah specifically tells us that this is the scene when the blindness of Israel ended.

Also, the Jews weren't blinded so that salvation could come to the Gentiles. That doesn't even make sense. Jews were concluded in unbelief so that salvation could come directly to Gentiles - through faith in Jesus Christ, meaning God was through using Jews. Their blindness came when, after some forty years of opportunity to hear and believe the Gospel, they still refused to believe the truth, even after seeing Christ, hearing Him, and were eye-witnesses of His miracles. They were blinded and destroyed. They were damned and destroyed in the Roman holocaust of AD70. Read 2Thes.2:9-12. About that time the believing remnant was raptured, and the souls of the Old Testament Israelites were resurrected and taken to heaven.

v13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof. I believe the "tenth" is an approximation. This was the small remnant. They would "return." That, I believe, means that after God concluded all Israel in unbelief, in other words He kicked them all out of His Family, He gave every one a means to come back into the Family; all they had to do was believe in and obey Jesus Christ.
A careful study of the New Testament, at least in the KJV, shows that there was a general salvation of all Israel around the time of the AD70 holocaust.

That raises the question: since all these were Christ's people, why weren't they saved the moment they received Him as Lord and Saviour. The Jews in that day weren't saved immediately. They had to endure the "Baptism of fire" to the end - the end of the Jewish system. The Gospel of John, chapter 1:

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

When they first received Him, they didn't immediately become sons of God, He only gave them power to become Sons of God. I suspect that means He empowered them to overcome the devil throughout that Baptism of fire period.

Jerry, I'll look at the other Scripture references to the remant later.

cpmac
http://www.tribulationhoax.com
  #33  
Old 03-20-2008, 03:06 PM
jerry
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God has promised to ALWAYS have a remnant, not just during the endtimes.

Funny how you think the rapture already occured - when John never wrote the book of Revelation, which deals with the Tribulation period/Daniels' seventieth week when God turns back to Israel, until AD 96!! Still future prophecy. God is still dealing with the churches, Jesus has not returned yet, the Antichrist is not ruling the world with his one-world government and church, and no mark of the beast has been established worldwide, Jesus is not physically reigning from Jerusalem yet, and the devil is not bound for 1000 years yet.
  #34  
Old 03-20-2008, 03:12 PM
timothy
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I thought baptism of fire concerns the souls who wil go into the lake of fire? Certainly not one to pray for...
  #35  
Old 03-20-2008, 07:03 PM
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There is a Preterist among this group. Preterism belief espouses the doctrines that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD. That is full blown Preterism. Partial Preterism does not believe some of those doctrines - rapture not having taken place yet, etc. Most, if not all phophecy is looked at through "allegorical" glasses. Literal interpretation of scripture is of little improtance. Hope this helps. There is much more. It is a lethal doctrine.

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  #36  
Old 03-20-2008, 10:08 PM
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Hey, Jerry, I see arguments between poeple who say Revelation was written before AD 70 and at AD 96, and neither side has any proof, it just becomes an argument as such.
"It was written this year"
"No it was written THIS year"

Can you show me where I can assure them it was written in 96, Anno Domine?
  #37  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:46 AM
jerry
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He was imprisoned during the persecutions of one of the Caesars. Peter and Paul were martyred during the first one, and Domitian's was the second - that is when John was exiled to Patmos.

Either way - it is obviously referring to future worldwide events that have not happened yet. Have all the seas turned to blood across the world? Has a 400 million man army come from China to fight against the antichrist? Is there a one-world leader and one-world church, where worship of the antichrist and his image is being enforced by beheading? Has there been a new temple built in Jerusalem? Have boils come upon everyone with the mark? Have all the armies of the world come against Jerusalem to wipe them out (battle of Armageddon)? Has the antichrist made a seven year peace treaty with Israel - and then defiled the temple/holy of holies in the middle of the seven years?

Pick any of the seals, trumpets, and vials - see what the book of Revelation has to say about them - then tell us they were fulfilled literally (and there is no prophetic fulfillment if it was not literal - all prophecies about Jesus' first coming were literal).
  #38  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:27 PM
evstevemd
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Anyway can Cpmac show me single scripture that first resurrection 1thes4:16-17 , 1cor15 and other scriptures that are for Israel and not the church? I know it refers to church (Jews and Gentiles), and not Israel. Can you show ne single scripture from rev1-22 or Daniel 1-12 to justify your claims.
  #39  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:29 PM
cpmac
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Jerry:

Quote:
He was imprisoned during the persecutions of one of the Caesars. Peter and Paul were martyred during the first one, and Domitian's was the second - that is when John was exiled to Patmos.
Can you be absolutely certain that John was imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos? He may have been there on the Lord's day "for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." The word "for" can be interpreted either as "because of," or "for the purpose of."
He could have been there preaching to the people of the fishing villages on the isle. But there is absolutely no physical evidence that he was there imprisoned by Domitian.

And if it was under Domitian's rule, who was among the worst persecutors of Christians, how was he permitted to write a Christian book like Revelation, and then send copies to seven churches? Come to think of it, if he was exiled for his belief in Christ, how come all those churches were able to operate "business as usual?"

Jesus told John to Write the things that were, the things that are, and the things that shall be hereafter. That's a fair indication that all of Revelation was not fulfilled by the end of the war in AD70. And if we weren't there, how can we be sure what was, and what was not.

Quote:
Has a 400 million man army come from China to fight against the antichrist?
Jerry, that number seems to be a bit inflated. And where does the Bible say that they will fight against the Antichrist, unless, by Antichrist, you mean Satan.

Quote:
Has the antichrist made a seven year peace treaty with Israel - and then defiled the temple/holy of holies in the middle of the seven years?
I presume that you get that out of Daniel 9:27. Or rather dispensational scholars pulled that out of Daniel and doctored it up to suit their agenda. Here is why I can't believe it was the Antichrist.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

If this was (or will be) the Antichrist who does all this, and we have all been taught that Antichrist is the epitome of abominations, and it says that for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate (meaning Jerusalem, or the kingdom of Israel), how can we expect him to have such an attack of righteous indignation that he makes it desolate for all of their abominations? That doesn't fit his character. But it's easy to see how Christ could do all these things.
And he didn't make a covenant of peace; He confirmed His Fathers' covenant (Luke 4:18) with Israel for three and a half years, until He was cut off (crucified). That essentially ended the sacrifice and the oblations.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com
  #40  
Old 03-21-2008, 07:05 PM
evstevemd
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2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Cpmac,
the word "man" is the same used on Mat 8:28
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
so Just tell us how this man of sin[Antichrist] becomes satan?
 

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