[MC1171611]

Well, we know Paul is in hell because he served the law of sin with his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Of course Jesus was talking to the JEWS who were waiting for a KING and an earthly KINGDOM in Matthew, but we can still rip it out of context, ignore Paul's teachings on soul liberty, and apply it to us today so we can enslave people to the rudiments of the law and bondage of works. Of course Lot is in hell because he got drunk and slept with his daughters, even though the Bible calls him "just Lot." What does the Holy Spirit know, anyway?

</sarcasm>

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Well, we know Paul is in hell because he served the law of sin with his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Of course Jesus was talking to the JEWS who were waiting for a KING and an earthly KINGDOM in Matthew, but we can still rip it out of context, ignore Paul's teachings on soul liberty, and apply it to us today so we can enslave people to the rudiments of the law and bondage of works. Of course Lot is in hell because he got drunk and slept with his daughters, even though the Bible calls him "just Lot." What does the Holy Spirit know, anyway?

</sarcasm>

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Paul here was demonstrating a lost person still dead in sin, and without Christ. But than, Paul writes: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord (He is thanking Jesus for giving him a place to put his sins, and NOW giving him of His Spirit to overcome sin through being led by the Spirit). So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin (Romans 7:24-25). "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Romans 2:13). "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4).

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" (1 Timothy 1:9-10).

HEBREWS 5:9

You harlots call obedience to God works because you're lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. You start drawing near to God and He'll draw near to you, "Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded (harlot)". Stop agreeing with the devil and start agreeing with God, not with your lips but with your heart. Start crying "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?".

The sacrifices and rituals where done away with in Christ, but the law of God remains. You who tamper with the law, tamper with that which defines the very image of the divine nature of God (the image of Jesus Christ). That is antiChrist! You cannot separate that law from the divine nature which defines the image of Christ Jesus. Jesus as he fulfilled the law of God, became the very express image of God (Heb. 1:3). He loved the Lord with all of His heart, mind, soul, and strength. When you do this, supernaturally you become something you are not. This is the true Grace of God, working in you. Giving you power over sin. Sin, separates you from God. When you are in covenant with Christ, the Lord writes His law upon your heart and mind.

Mark 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

[MC1171611]

Wonderboy shows up and immediately starts calling people names. Typical.

I'm not usually one for banning people, but he seems to be in the top 10% of idiots, so I'd vote to give him the boot. He obviously isn't here to discuss anything or to provide Biblical edification. He just wants to scream and shout and pound his widdle fists on the ground.

Paul has been an interesting subject in my fellowship, we have a few people who you could say are borderline obsessed with his sermons. But take a look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERIXg...eature=related
From what I understand from what Paul is saying is that works come out of a true salvation. That your works are your evidence of your true conversion.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Just my 2 cents.

[Luke]

But that's not what the Bible says. Firstly James is an epistle to the jews, and is also talking about justification BEFORE men.

The only evidence in Heaven that God looks upon is "do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". The only evidence that God cares about is the belief in your heart, and whether that is real or not.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Men have got to stop looking to themselves for assurance. If they look inside and see that they do trust Jesus Christ, let them depart from iniquity because of their love for Jesus, and because they have been saved (not being saved - it ain't no process).

Originally Posted by Luke

But that's not what the Bible says. Firstly James is an epistle to the jews, and is also talking about justification BEFORE men.

The only evidence in Heaven that God looks upon is "do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". The only evidence that God cares about is the belief in your heart, and whether that is real or not.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Men have got to stop looking to themselves for assurance. If they look inside and see that they do trust Jesus Christ, let them depart from iniquity because of their love for Jesus, and because they have been saved (not being saved - it ain't no process).

Brother Luke, first let me state that I agree with you on this. Salvation comes through faith alone in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior.

I guess I didnt word what I meant the best, what im saying is not a way to assure yourself, Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works). This is not for the assurance of yourself but for others. I believe in my heart that Jesus is Lord, and He died for my sins, I KNOW I am saved because of the blood of Jesus that was shed for me. But at the same time I am not omniscience, I do not know if someone truly believes what they say they believe, the only way I can tell this is through their fruit, when I think of my fellow brethren in this aspect I often ask myself, are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can. You mentioned that that was directed towards the Jews, but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer.

Ive actually never listened to the shocking message or whatever it is of paul's, but I have listened to quite a few and I believe he does know have a correct view of salvation, my only problem is that he focuses so much on repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it.

But I'm open to other opinions I was just trying to clarify my position.

[Luke]

Oh okay Thanks for clarifying

As for Mr Washer's view of Salvation, I would be wary about agreeing with him. While he claims it is by grace through faith, he is extremely reformed in doctrine.

He believes God regenerates a man before that man has faith in God (effectively saving the man before he even believes on Christ). A woman comes to him asking how to be saved and he tells her to beg God for salvation, and don't stop begging God until he gives it to her, and she can either beg until God saves her, or she can give up and go to hell. Similarly another man asks him how to be saved but says he believes the gospel and understands it but doesn't feel anything change in him, and he says the same thing to that man.

His view is very skewed - it seems to me that he fears for his own salvation, or that he believes God doesn't really want to save anyone, and needs convincing before He will.

[JMWHALEN]

Originally Posted by tkg

Brother Luke, first let me state that I agree with you on this. Salvation comes through faith alone in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior.

I guess I didnt word what I meant the best, what im saying is not a way to assure yourself, Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works). This is not for the assurance of yourself but for others. I believe in my heart that Jesus is Lord, and He died for my sins, I KNOW I am saved because of the blood of Jesus that was shed for me. But at the same time I am not omniscience, I do not know if someone truly believes what they say they believe, the only way I can tell this is through their fruit, when I think of my fellow brethren in this aspect I often ask myself, are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can. You mentioned that that was directed towards the Jews, but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer.

Ive actually never listened to the shocking message or whatever it is of paul's, but I have listened to quite a few and I believe he does know have a correct view of salvation, my only problem is that he focuses so much on repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it.

But I'm open to other opinions I was just trying to clarify my position.

______

"Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works)."

"truly saved"

Is that similar to "truly pregnant, truly dead, truly alive, truly white, truly black, truly sweet, truly bitter........?

Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk."

"the only way I can tell this is through their fruit."

How much "fruit?" You do not comprehend the gravity of sin. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being." Tell us how much "fruit" is required. And, while you are at it, if this is your(not my) "argument", tell us that you have met the requirement of "fruit." And what relevance is it, even if your "argument" is correct(and it is not), that "you can tell?"

"..are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can."

This is sanctification, not justification.

"trying"

How much "trying"?


"but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer."


How many works would you say "qualified" that you "showed any movement towards God"? You have the wrong conception of sin. Those poor Corinthians, who are referred to as "saints." The Galatians would love this sermon.

And what distinguishes a "true" believer from a "not true" believer? Tell all of us what a "true believer" is, with specifics.


"repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it. "

"turn from sin" is sanctification/service/"walk", not justification. The LORD God repented.

Sounds like a "Lordship Salvation" proponent here-a perversion of the gospel of Christ-Gal. 1)


In Christ,

John M. Whalen

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by truewars

You harlots

Well, that's enough of that. Take your false gospel elsewhere.

[stephanos]

Wow I haven't seen that since I've been here. I bet he's really battling sin in his own life. I know I tend to get very grouchy and defensive when I'm warring against the flesh myself. It's too bad this guy hasn't learned to extend mercy and forgiveness towards others (especially we who believe in the gospel of God's Grace) in the like manner that Christ did towards him.

Peace and Love,
Stephen