Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

 
 
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  #11  
Old 01-11-2009, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: " Personal convictions....= Man Made doctrine"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julianus View Post
"Aloha too, George
thanks for filling in the 'obvious' blanks in my post.

As you have eagerly & effectively demonstrated, this forum enjoys the audience of diligent readers - and you have my deepest respect for showing yourself being just such.

However, your 25 precepts were not challenged. Yet even those can only be acknowledged/believed by someone who has experienced through personal 'revelation / quickening' by the Holy Spirit, the Truth they contain. To anyone else they might seem to be just fables, hearsay, old wive's tales - anecdotes at best. Hence the reluctance of the people in the world to 'believe' what you, me and many more KNOW to be true.

Our
Faith doesn't come from books or stories. Neither did the Faith of those during the time of Christ. Whilst it's easy for us to quote plenty of 'dead' (not yet quickened by the Holy Spirit in our own life) Scriptures to construct a case against the world, they will not have a bar of it - until God reveals Himself to them personally.

And whilst
our time is being taken up discussing the 'depths of doctrines, confirming yet again how satan wages war against God & the saints' ... corrupt preachers, mega-churches and modern-day-apostles mislead the gullible masses to 'gild' their pockets.

.... may God richly bless you and open other avenues for effectual banter .... ;-)"

Aloha again, Julianus,

There are some things, in regards to your last remarks, that I must take issue with.

You said:
Quote:
"However, your 25 precepts were not challenged. Yet even those can only be acknowledged/believed by someone who has experienced through personal 'revelation / quickening' by the Holy Spirit, the Truth they contain. To anyone else they might seem to be just fables, hearsay, old wive's tales - anecdotes at best. Hence the reluctance of the people in the world to 'believe' what you, me and many more KNOW to be true."
Those "precepts" that I listed http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...27&postcount=5 are not "mine" (not my "personal convictions" or "personal revelations"). They are major Doctrines found in the Scripture of Truth. They are not dependent upon me accepting them as truth or believing in them. God's word is not dependent upon our response or recognition. It is TRUE no matter what any body thinks or does with it!

It does not matter a whit whether anyone else "thinks" that God's word is "just fables, hearsay, old wive's tales - anecdotes at best." The Scriptures stand apart from mankind's acknowledgment, and are in no way dependent upon our response. The Scriptures are God's words from God's own mouth. Words by which He formed and created the world, the sun, the moon, the stars, etc.

God's words are in no way dependent upon us for legitimacy or efficacy. God gives His word (by inspiration) for our benefit, but it is not dependent upon us - in reality we are dependent upon it.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


You said:
Quote:
"Our Faith doesn't come from books or stories. Neither did the Faith of those during the time of Christ."
On the contrary - OUR FAITH DOES COME FROM BOOKS - BOOKS that can only be found in the Holy Bible. As a matter of fact - Our faith is totally dependent on the BOOKS of the Bible. [Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.] And the people in Christ's time were told to "search the scriptures" (the Books of the Bible) by the Lord Himself in regards to eternal life and their testimony about WHO Jesus christ truly was. [John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.]

You said:
Quote:
"Whilst it's easy for us to quote plenty of 'dead' (not yet quickened by the Holy Spirit in our own life) Scriptures to construct a case against the world, they will not have a bar of it - until God reveals Himself to them personally."
I beg to strongly differ with you that God's words are: "dead Scriptures" - "not yet quickened by the Holy Spirit in our own life"!

God's words (the Holy Scriptures) are NOT DEAD! They are NOT DEAD - until suddenly "quickened by the Holy Spirit in our own life"! God's words are totally independent from our response to them. They DO NOT only "come alive" when we are "quickened by the Holy Spirit". On the contrary - God's words are "ALIVE" and the Holy Spirit uses them to "quicken" us at the moment of our salvation. [1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which LIVETH and abideth for ever.]

Except for our own personal welfare (Eternal & Temporal), a person’s “personal convictions” matter very little; out of six billion people inhabiting this earth – what does it matter WHAT I “THINK”? What does matter is: WHAT DOES GOD’S WORD SAY!

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

What I “think” (or what anyone else “thinks”) is not that important, but we have a Book that claims to contain the very words of God. Now God’s words are all important, for they are “the words of eternal life”:

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

We have a Saviour (The Lord Jesus Christ) who is UNCHANGEABLE:

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”[Hebrews 13:8]

What I “think” or “believe”, or what anybody else “thinks” or “believes” about Christ, is immaterial as to WHO He really is! If my “personal convictions” about the Lord Jesus Christ do not line up with what the Holy Scriptures SAY about Him – my “personal convictions” are worthless {No matter how sincere I may “believe” in them!)

We have God’s word (the Holy “Scripture of Truth”) and what we do with it is immaterial to God. His word is going to accomplish what God intended for it to do – with, or without us!

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Psalms 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
Psalms 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

God’s word is not DEAD – It’s ALIVE! [John 6:68; 1Peter 1:23] And if the vast majority of mankind CHOOSES not to believe it, that doesn’t change the nature of His word – not one iota! If most of the Christians in America and the rest of the Western world choose to IGNORE it (regardless of their “personal convictions”), that doesn’t mean that it is not powerful or effective in the lives of those Christians who have CHOSEN to BELIEVE it!

I have “personal convictions” about a lot of issues: “homeschooling”; “when the church began”; “women’s hair”; the “headship of a father and husband”; “drinking alcohol”; “smoking cigarettes”; “when the soul begins”; “how a marriage should be conducted”; “ a woman’s place in the home & church”; “the conduct of children”; “Christian Patriotism”; “the purpose of tongues, signs, & wonders”; "healing"; “pastoral authority”; “church hierarchy in modern American churches”; “church administration”; “the modern American church makeup & conduct” (emulating the world’s institutions – down to the “nursery”, the division of families into “Classes” {like the government schools}, “young people’s groups”, “teens”, “young adults”, the “unmarrieds”, the “married without children”, the married with children, etc., etc.); "the kingdom of heaven & the Kingdom of God"; "Dispensations"; "How to rightly divide the word of truth"; etc.; etc.

But my “personal convictions are NOT THE SAME as the Holy word of God – which is “immutable”, “unchangeable”, Holy, perfect and without error! Some of my “personal convictions” may be WRONG – but God’s word is always RIGHT:

For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.” [Psalms 33:4]

In the 50 years that I have been saved, I have “changed” some of my “personal convictions” (I’ve ADDED some and DROPPED others), but during all that time God’s word NEVER CHANGED! “Personal convictions” are fine – as long as we don’t confuse them with God’s Holy, unchangeable word.

We are NOT born again (saved) because of our “personal convictions”. We are saved because:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Personal BELIEF in the Gospel, in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in His redeeming work on Calvary is what makes it possible to receive the free gift of eternal salvation. And God has chosen the written word as the “vehicle” (the means) to accomplish that end.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If you hold that “personal conviction”, well praise God – but don’t make the mistake of thinking that “your personal convictions” are what saves you. Our Salvation is based on the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary, and on our believing the “record” - the Scripture of Truth, i.e. The Holy Bible. Our salvation is dependent upon God’s word – NOT our “personal convictions”.
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #12  
Old 01-11-2009, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Post by George

God's words are in no way dependent upon us for legitimacy or efficacy.

OUR FAITH DOES COME FROM BOOKS - BOOKS that can only be found in the Holy Bible. As a matter of fact - Our faith is totally dependent on the BOOKS of the Bible.

God's words are "ALIVE" and the Holy Spirit uses them to "quicken" us at the moment of our salvation.

[1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which LIVETH and abideth for ever.]
Amen George! God's Words are alive and life giving. How important are these words(whether we receive them or not)!

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Our attitude and response to the Bible concerning salvation, sanctification, and ALL issues of life IS important. The consequences are eternal. There is NO gospel (or truth) apart from the Scriptures.

Romans 10:17 So then FAITH COMETH by hearing, and hearing BY THE WORD OF GOD.

1 Peter 1:23 Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, BY THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever.

(Not of CORRUPTBLE men's words.)

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it NOT AS THE WORD OF MEN, but as it is in truth, the WORD OF GOD, which EFFECTUALLY WORKETH also in you that believe.

Psalms 119:41 VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy SALVATION, ACCORDING TO THY WORD.

Psalms 119:81 CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I HOPE in THY WORD.

Psalms 119:130 The entrance of THY WORDS giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

John 5:39
Search THE SCRIPTURES; for IN THEM ye think ye have ETERNAL LIFE: and they are they which testify of me.

Acts 18:28
For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing BY THE SCRIPTURES that Jesus was Christ.

John 20:31 But THESE ARE WRITTEN, that ye might BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

James 1:18 Of his own will BEGAT HE US WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the ENGRAFTED WORD, which is ABLE TO SAVE YOUR SOULS.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you THE GOSPEL which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 BY WHICH YE ALSO YE ARE SAVED, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES:

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast MAGNIFIED THY WORD above all thy name.
  #13  
Old 01-12-2009, 12:35 AM
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Amen, Bro. George and Debau! Great posts.
  #14  
Old 01-12-2009, 05:29 AM
Julianus
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Thanks George (& Debau – I’m still reading through your addendum & appraisal of George’s post)

… for expounding a mass of Scriptures, however – being able to recite/quote/print or cut/paste numerous Scriptures via the use of various search functions or e-swords (mind you, these sources were unavailable to early believers who depended on the ‘inspired Word’ just as much as today’s disciples) does NEITHER improve the standing NOR the authority of those who make use of many words – without having the Holy Spirit anoint them.

Your mode of answer in ‘list-form’ simply confirms that you might ‘spiritually’ not be as far removed from the Pharisees as you’d perhaps wished – or convinced yourself you are.

Of course God’s Word doesn’t depend on anyone’s response, to be true. And of course by His Word He created everything. And of course the Pharisees knew as much. But proclaiming ‘Words’, claiming promises by presuming Faith/Hope, is of as much use as when the ‘Seven sons of Sceva Acts 19:11-20’ tried to cast out Spirits, presuming 3rd hand authority.

The first disciples had the same books Jesus had, BUT their FAITH did not come from those. On the contrary, their faith was established by having been ‘touched, had a revelation, been called, personal knowledge = conviction) by this man who was the son of God. And even the learned, scripture quoting men of their times couldn’t take that away from them – not even under pain of death.

The man is to be pitied, whose sole claim to being on the ‘true way’, is to repeatedly quote passages and Scriptures from a book. It is equally as futile as when Mormons, Muslims and other misguided religious zealots repeatedly quote from their (un)holy books – something we Christians readily denounce as invalid arguments. Without the anointing from God, he is just a parrot – and ‘Rivers of Living Water’ do NOT quench the thirst of souls whom the Lord might call unto Himself, ready for repentance.

But ‘HOW’ does one really know? Until God speaks to a man’s heart, tugs on the strings of conscience, answers a seeking heart, opens to a knocking soul and lets an asking searcher receive – the individual doesn’t know which book or which God is the true one.

Of course God’s Words are not dead Scriptures (you really like to be a stickler, aren’t you ;-), and you might have put a little spin on what I wrote there . . . personally I feel that only a ‘learned & showy’ Pharisee would pretend not to have understood the context here . . .

Rather, the point so well confirmed by your reply, the simple quoting of Scriptures in itself is ‘dead’ > WITHOUT the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Of course, you say, you have anointing – who can doubt it? Many posts are ample proof of your ability to wield the sword. The Pharisees also, when they brought the adulteress to Jesus, didn’t lie when quoting the Scriptures/Law. However, their intent was to use the law to kill the woman, and trap or destroy Jesus. Jesus had compassion. He was the only one who could have cast the first stone. But he didn’t. Instead he confounded the ‘learned’ and ‘saved’ the life of the sinner. He came to save. He came to ‘touch our lives’.

I believe, in this case, following Scripture could be meaningful to you: Proverbs 18:13; He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. And I believe you might have ‘assumed’ and mis-interpreted where my argument for ‘personal conviction’ possibly was headed. There was no ‘inkling’ or hint that ‘mine, or anyone’s, personal convictions’ are what saves me/anyone.

Dear George, am I (and other readers) to understand from your post/replies, that you have NOT been ‘touched’ by the Lord, and that your ‘spouting forth’ of Scriptures is solely based on your experience in reading & arguing a book? You base your lofty answers on the head-knowledge you’ve acquired (quote) in your 50 years of being saved? Like waving around some sort of magic wand and posturing for the best Scripturally defensible position?

If you have had some ‘real’ contact with our Lord Jesus, whom you profess, I must say that your posts reflect very little of the compassion, hope and tears which He shed & shared with us.

Souls (people) don’t care how much you know – they care how much you care!

And if you had some Holy Spirit touch in your life, something which made it possible for you to have hope, to believe that God is a personal God for YOU, then there was no need for you to write that long (dead) list of Scriptures which every sincere seeker can get himself from a Concordance or Digital Bible. Without compassion.

And if you haven’t had the personal touch or conviction in your own life – then you’re only a theoretician.

Puffed up by head knowledge, no good to anyone laying on the road side (in the world), waiting for a ‘neighbour’, waiting for a Samaritan to come along.

... and Debau, I fear your eagerness to applaud George and copy his style didn’t really do you any favours. But more to your post later.
Good night ;-)
  #15  
Old 01-12-2009, 11:07 AM
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Julianus,
Thanks for likening my style to George's! It was unintentional. I wrote what I had before I ever came on this forum except for the comment. I could only wish I had the ability to write as prolific and eloquent as George, but writing on a computer makes me dyslexic.
Perhaps this similar style is common to those who have the same presupposition of the Author of Scripture and His Words.

No the Apostles faith did not come from the Scriptures AS we come to faith in them, for they had not been completed yet. They did have an understanding of the OT Scripture, but they were not spiritually enlightened by them until Jesus the Living Word expounded them to them.

Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Before this, they had no understanding.

John 12:16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

The penmen (not Author) of Scripture knew they were recording God's words. They had seen, heard, and touched the Living Word.

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Yet even having seen the Living Word transfigured, and all His miracles, they understood now that there was something to be magnified above all this!

2 Peter 1:17-21 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

It seems your presuppostion of God's Words are disassociated from God's love. What does God say about love?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

The word "keep" is simply not to "obey", but to GUARD and keep watch. PROTECT.

God placed no little emphasis on His words.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

His children expect the same.
God's people understand the importance of His Words.

Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

My pevious post just underscored the efficacy of His Words. They are soul saving Words. Read it again.

His Words point to the Object of my adoration, the Saviour.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

You confuse compassion for love. Without God's Words, there is no love. There is no Saviour, salvation, or heaven.

God's love is expressed by His Words, maybe that's why he is called the Word of God...?

The Psalmist said of His Words;

Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

They are a JOY to those who embrace them.

Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

You call it "puffed up head knowledge" to have these words in our heart, and to rely on and use them. You impugn and malign a brother and judge him wrongly without knowing him or his motives. You viciously associate him with the Pharisees who wanted to kill the woman caught in adultery!

You have no idea what Godly compassion is.

Psalms 126:6 He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

The SEED is the Word of God!!

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Wisdom is the fear of the Lord. Evangelism is not effectual by compassion apart from fear of the Lord and His Words.
The basis of God's love is His Words, how we repond to them, and manifest that "head knowledge" with effectual evangelism!

The fact is EVERYONE will be judged by their response to God's Words.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Those (Julianus, et al.) who are quick to judge others as without compassion because they embrace God's Word's ought to reflect on this.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
  #16  
Old 01-12-2009, 02:43 PM
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George George is offline
 
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Default Re: " Personal convictions....= Man Made doctrine"

Julianus, Julianus, Julianus,

WHY have you turned this "discussion" into a personal attack on my person? HOW is it that you are "judging" my heart motives and my character - when you don't even know me?

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

You have a "PROBLEM" my friend - Read my Post #11 this Thread AGAIN. Did I attack you personally? Did I judge your Motives? Did I pass judgment on your spiritual condition? Did I comment on your walk with God? Hmmm?

If I didn't - then WHY are you attacking me personally instead of dealing with the "issues"? Could it possibly be that as far as the "issues" are concerned that you are wrong? Could it be that instead of being willing to accept the fact fact that you are wrong, that you have lashed out at me for pointing out the error of your ways? [Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?]

Quote:
"Thanks George … (& Debau – I’m still reading through your addendum & appraisal of George’s post) … for expounding a mass of Scriptures, however – being able to recite/quote/print or cut/paste numerous Scriptures via the use of various search functions or e-swords (mind you, these sources were unavailable to early believers who depended on the ‘inspired Word’ just as much as today’s disciples) does NEITHER improve the standing NOR the authority of those who make use of many words – without having the Holy Spirit anoint them."
In order to "expound a mass of Scripture" a person has to have some idea WHAT to look for! {That was your 1st. "Cheap shot"!}

HOW is it that you ""KNOW" - WHO is "anointed" by the Holy spirit and WHO is NOT? You have never met me (or Debau). You have never heard me preach or teach. You have never fellowshipped or prayed with me. HOW does a "Christian" go about "judging" another Christian without ever having met them or having spent any time with them? HOW can you tell whether I am "anointed" by the Holy Spirit - or NOT? Hmmm? Accusing Debau and myself of: "without having the Holy Spirit anoint them." {That was your 2nd. "cheap shot"!}

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


For your information: I have the same "anointing" that ALL born again Christians have. I was given "an unction from the Holy One" the day that I was saved in October, 1958. {The same "unction" that all God's children have} You see - I don't believe that some Christians are "anointed" and others aren't! If a person is genuinely saved (i.e. born again) they have the Holy Spirit living in them, and as such, anyone who is born again of the Holy Spirit of God has received the "anointing" - not just preachers, teachers, etc.

Quote:
"Your mode of answer in ‘list-form’ simply confirms that you might ‘spiritually’ not be as far removed from the Pharisees as you’d perhaps wished – or convinced yourself you are."
{That was your 3rd. "Cheap Shot"!}

The fact that I use Scripture when addressing an issue is "proof" that I am a Pharisee? Has God given you a special "anointing" to read other people's hearts? I trow not!

Quote:
"The man is to be pitied, whose sole claim to being on the ‘true way’, is to repeatedly quote passages and Scriptures from a book. It is equally as futile as when Mormons, Muslims and other misguided religious zealots repeatedly quote from their (un)holy books – something we Christians readily denounce as invalid arguments. Without the anointing from God, he is just a parrot – and ‘Rivers of Living Water’ do NOT quench the thirst of souls whom the Lord might call unto Himself, ready for repentance."
So now - I'm to be "pitied"? {That is your 4th. "Cheap Shot"!} And then you compare me with "Cultists" (Mormons); "Infidels" (Muslims); and "misguided religious zealots" who "quote from their un-holy books". {That is your 5th. "Cheap Shot"!}

I don't just "quote passages and Scriptures from a book." THE BOOK that I quote IS SCRIPTURE! It's NOT just "a book"! The King James Bible is NOT just "a book" - it's THE BOOK of God!

Quote:
"But ‘HOW’ does one really know? Until God speaks to a man’s heart, tugs on the strings of conscience, answers a seeking heart, opens to a knocking soul and lets an asking searcher receive – the individual doesn’t know which book or which God is the true one."
So, according to you, - ultimately a person can only determine the Truth (or what is True) by "feelings" or "personal experience". But HOW can a person know whether it is the One True God that: "peaks to a man’s heart, tugs on the strings of conscience, answers a seeking heart, opens to a knocking soul and lets an asking searcher receive" or whether it is the "god of this world"? Hmmm? The only way to discern between the two is to "search the Scriptures" - whether you agree or not matters little to God. He has commanded us to "search the Scriptures" to verify whether something (or someone) is True or not.

Quote:
"Of course God’s Words are not dead Scriptures (you really like to be a stickler, aren’t you ;-), and you might have put a little spin on what I wrote there . . . personally I feel that only a ‘learned & showy’ Pharisee would pretend not to have understood the context here . . ."
To accuse me of being "a ‘learned & showy’ Pharisee " {That is your 6th. "Cheap Shot"!} simply because I repeated what you wrote, is the height of hypocrisy! I didn't "spin" anything - I simply quoted what you said, and then proceeded to demonstrate (according to the Scriptures - which you don't seem to like very much) why you were wrong. Why not "prove" me wrong - rather than attack me personally?

Quote:
"Rather, the point so well confirmed by your reply, the simple quoting of Scriptures in itself is ‘dead’ > WITHOUT the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Of course, you say, you have anointing – who can doubt it? Many posts are ample proof of your ability to wield the sword. The Pharisees also, when they brought the adulteress to Jesus, didn’t lie when quoting the Scriptures/Law. However, their intent was to use the law to kill the woman, and trap or destroy Jesus. Jesus had compassion. He was the only one who could have cast the first stone. But he didn’t. Instead he confounded the ‘learned’ and ‘saved’ the life of the sinner. He came to save. He came to ‘touch our lives’."
{Intimating that I am a Pharisee (again!) - That is your 7th. "Cheap Shot"!}

So, once again, are you claiming that God has given you a "gift" of being able to determine WHO is "anointed" when they quote Scripture - and WHO is NOT? Do you even realize WHAT you are saying? If I am saved (born again) I have the Holy Spirit living in me (all saved people have the Holy Spirit living in them). You "dare" to question my motives (the "intents" of my heart)? You dare to judge whether I am "anointed" or not! [Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.]

Quote:
"I believe, in this case, following Scripture could be meaningful to you: Proverbs 18:13; He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. And I believe you might have ‘assumed’ and mis-interpreted where my argument for ‘personal conviction’ possibly was headed. There was no ‘inkling’ or hint that ‘mine, or anyone’s, personal convictions’ are what saves me/anyone."
I didn't "assume" or "misinterpret" anything. I took what you posted, and examined it in the light of the Holy Scriptures, and found it (your Post) to be contrary to "sound doctrine". I was simply obeying what the Scriptures have commanded me to do:
[Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
]

It is obvious to me that you are not interested in a civil discourse between brethren, but instead, when you cannot (or will not) refute a Scripturally based remonstrance against your "personal opinions" you revert to "attacking the messenger instead of the message".

Quote:
"Dear George, am I (and other readers) to understand from your post/replies, that you have NOT been ‘touched’ by the Lord, and that your ‘spouting forth’ of Scriptures is solely based on your experience in reading & arguing a book? You base your lofty answers on the head-knowledge you’ve acquired (quote) in your 50 years of being saved? Like waving around some sort of magic wand and posturing for the best Scripturally defensible position?"
Your "subtle" and "clever" insinuating that: "you have NOT been ‘touched’ by the Lord" {That is your 8th. "Cheap Shot"!} is over the top! What does it mean to be "touched by the Lord"? Hmmm? Is a "Christian" that is "touched by the Lord" better than other Christians - Or more spiritual than other Christians? I have checked the Holy Scriptures and cannot find the phrase "touched by the Lord" in the entire Bible. Is this some "New Doctrine"? (Possibly some "New Pentecostal/Charismatic Doctrine"?)

You have accused me of: "your ‘spouting forth’"; "waving around some sort of magic wand"; and "posturing" - when I never accused you of anything (the only thing I did was refute your assertions). {Is that your 9th, 10th, & 11th "Cheap Shots"?}

And then your accusation: "that your ‘spouting forth’ of Scriptures is solely based on your experience in reading & arguing a book?" again shows your disdain for the Holy Bible - which I have already stated is NOT JUST "A BOOK"!

Quote:
"If you have had some real’ contact with our Lord Jesus, whom you profess, I must say that your posts reflect very little of the compassion, hope and tears which He shed & shared with us."
There you go - AGAIN! Judging me and my character without knowing the first thing about me! How does a "sensitive", "loving", "caring" "Christian" do that? Hmmm?

You have NO IDEA how much "contact" I have had with my Lord and Saviour over the past 50 years. But for you to judge me by my response to your "assertions" and "personal opinions" is both "presumptuous" and not very "compassionate" on your part. Have you never dealt with a real man before - Who is willing to contend with you and not put up with your "personal opinions"?

Quote:
"And if you had some Holy Spirit touch in your life, something which made it possible for you to have hope, to believe that God is a personal God for YOU, then there was no need for you to write that long (dead) list of Scriptures which every sincere seeker can get himself from a Concordance or Digital Bible. Without compassion.

And if you haven’t had the personal touch or conviction in your own life – then you’re only a theoretician.

Puffed up by head knowledge, no good to anyone laying on the road side (in the world), waiting for a ‘neighbour’, waiting for a Samaritan to come along.

... and Debau, I fear your eagerness to applaud George and copy his style didn’t really do you any favours. But more to your post later.
Good night ;
-)"
And so we come to the end of your little diatribe and accusations:

You stated: "if you had some Holy Spirit touch in your life" - how would you know whether the Holy Spirit "touched" me or NOT?

You said: "there was no need for you to write that long (dead) list of Scriptures which every sincere seeker can get himself from a Concordance or Digital Bible. Without compassion." I use a lot of Scripture in dealing with people because most Christians today are ignorant of the Scriptures, and the Holy words of God are far more important than my "personal opinions". And your continual use of the word "dead" in reference to the Scriptures demonstrates a "disdain" for the Holy words of God - Not very appropriate for a child of God!

Your accusation: And if you haven’t had the personal touch or conviction in your own life – then you’re only a theoretician. {That is your 12th. "Cheap Shot"! And I lost track of all of the "accusations"! Oh, by the way - I do know who "THE ACCUSER" of the brethren is: Revelation 12:10}

Your parting "Cheap Shot" {Is that #13?} - "Puffed up by head knowledge, no good to anyone laying on the road side (in the world), waiting for a ‘neighbour’, waiting for a Samaritan to come along." Is typical of your entire judgmental and accusatory discourse. You have proven by your Post that you are incapable of carrying on a respectful discorse with someone without continually denigrating them and accusing them of things that you can't possibly know about them.

Don't expect another response (from me) to whatever else you may post. I learned long ago (probably before you were born) to avoid insincere and disingenuous people - which you (by your Posts) have "proven" to be.

Proverbs 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Ecclesiastes 10:12 The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.
13 The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness.
14 A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him?
  #17  
Old 01-12-2009, 04:40 PM
Julianus
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Dear George,

... height of hypocrisy, cheap shots, judgemental and accusatory idscourse, insincere and disingenuous . . . ? - again you simply confirmed that you're either unwilling or unable to address the topic at the start of this thread. Personal Conviction.

You're so offended at the mention of Pharisees that you overlook your quoting of many Scriptures 'can' be likened to them quoting the law.

Of course, no Scripture can be argued with and IS truth - that was never point of the thread. You 'judge' that I'm insincere and just fire 'cheap shots at you? Yet you haven't laid aside 'hypocrisy' about your personal convictions, when hiding behind lists of Scriptures.

You seek refuge in stating that I haven't spent any time with you, don't know you (or Debau) - therefore shouldn't pass 'judgement' on what you have written in the last posts. That is not so. If you have many years of experience in 'searching out truth', has this one evaded you? You presume that the use of 'dead' in connection with Scripture points to 'disdain of the Holy Word of God'?

Maybe my examples (Samaritan, Pharisees, ...) were too extreme or harsh for your sensitive Faith. The correctness of the Scriptures you quote was never challenged, of course not! Neither the authority of the Holy Word of God!

As far as I understand, the real point this thread makes is this:

Our God is a personal God AND intervenes in a direct manner.
Personal 'conviction' plays a great part in our relationship with God.
Personal 'revelation' from God IS the back-up & proof that we're not only believing a book, which claims to be God's Word.
The learning, prooving AND quickening of Scriptures is established 'after' God has anointed/revealed himself to a soul.

Everything written after the four Gospels and Acts is addressed to people who have already had their 'calling / revelation / conviction' - and ARE professing Christians, already committed.

The four Gospels and Acts are adressed to the 'unbelievers', where the difference between the Pharisees and Jesus quoting Scriptures/Laws was that the Pharisees were self rightheous and did not understand God's intentions for the law, whereas the unblievers saw that when Jesus spoke with AUTHORITY, miracles happened. HE was different, HE lived differently and He was filled with compassion for the lost (everyone). God confirmed His Word with signs following.

With your first post in this thread you made this kind of 'personal conviction' of no effect, rather emphasizing that it's all only about Scripture.

Whilst Scripture is the ONLY Truth - you'll get no argument from me there - the answer to 'personal convictions' refers to first contact with God. Your posts correctly quote plenty of Scriptures but fail to connect them at any stage to the 'personal revelation' to a soul.

Maybe you have been blessed by being raised in a Christian family, maybe God revealed himself to you at a very young age - or everything was 'as clear as day' for you. I know many for whom it was not so. They had God 'intervene and reveal Himself' to them, and so KNEW that the stories they had heard, and the pages of the Bible were true.

Far from resigning yourself to not answering any of my posts anymore, and far from calling me 'foolish', perhaps you'd like to show yourself the 'wise' man you claim to be - put aside any feelings of being offended and offer some real 'hope' to souls who are searching for that personal conviction or 'revelation' from God.

So far, you haven't shown more life or concern than a computer program designed to find Scriptures on a subject.

I find it surprising that you're so easily offended - and dealing with a real man and contend with him, whilst not putting up with his assertions & personal opinions - you don't think that this point is valid from my side (towards you) as well?

Maybe your 'tone' speaks louder than the message? Maybe my 'tone' speaks louder than the message too . . .

In all honesty . . . after clearing the air in such way, couldn't you be refreshed and busting to put 'meat' to your theory?

In the Love of Christ
Julianus
  #18  
Old 01-12-2009, 06:15 PM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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"Yet even those can only be acknowledged/believed by someone who has experienced through personal 'revelation / quickening' by the Holy Spirit, the Truth they contain." Julianus #8

while this statement has some eliment of truth, keep in mind that whether a person has their personal epiphany of revelaiton of the truth or not has no bearing on God's word being true.

For many people will hear or read the word of God and it will not be completely revealed to them by the Holy Ghost due to some reason or another (people at different levels of spiritual developmnet). that does not keep Gods word/doctrines from being truth.

it is still truth whether they had a revelation of it's truth or not.
  #19  
Old 01-13-2009, 12:58 AM
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MC1171611 MC1171611 is offline
 
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Well let's see: Mr. Julianus has made one off-handed reference to a passage in the Bible, and posted one whole verse! Other than that, he's posted personal opinions, carnal statements and a whole lot of hot air.

Bro. George - I didn't even try counting. Let's just assume that for every useful - or even TRUE! - word or phrase that Mr. Julianus posted, George put up at least a dozen Scriptures.

2Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (emphasis mine)

Mr. Julianus, I've seen hundreds if not thousands of verses of my "Quick (alive!!) and powerful" (Heb. 4:12 in THE BOOK) SCRIPTURES talking about the importance of SCRIPTURE, and NONE about the importance of an "experience." Not to mention that your idea of a post-Salvation "Holy-spirit anointing" is about as useful as a parka in the Caribbean.
  #20  
Old 01-13-2009, 01:22 AM
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PB1789 PB1789 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Alaska, USA
Posts: 172
Default Caution---!

Hey guys... Before you waste anymore time and exercise your typing fingers, I'd suggest that you Google ( or some search engine) the name: Julianus .

After reading a couple of posts by this highly questionable Poster, I did a search and Julianus was one of the Roman Emperors and was also known as Julianus the Apostate.

The other Julianus was a chaldean philosopher and jibber-jabber monster.

It seems to me that this "Julianus" in 2009 A.D. took his/her screen name intentionally. If I was a Lost Wages, Nevada bettin' man---I'd bet that Julianus is a reincarnation of someone that got banned a couple of months back... .

When someone comes onto a Bible Discussion website and makes statements about the Word of God being dead ... well , it smells like an APOSTATE to me... What say Ye ?
 

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