[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

But the location of Isaiah 66:23 & 24 is relating to verse 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD". I'm not so sure there will even be a Dead Sea on the new earth? I believe that the current one will be melted up with everything else before the Lord creates the new heavens and earth.

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Yeah, this is what I was about to post. I don't think it will be on the newly created earth since I don't think God would want people bearing their own sins on His new creation. Also, wherever it is it needs to be big enough for death and hell to be cast into it. Also, I've been reading some recent theories about where matter originally came from. Some scientists are speculating that if you focus enough "light" somehwhere that matter will spontaneously be created. I imagine that God's unfiltered glory is bright enough to do the trick! Hehe. Nevertheless, I also think that God's glory is enough to burst any sinner into flames if he were so caught in the presence of the Lord bearing his own sins.

For our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29 KJV)

Just an idea...

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by stephanos

Yeah, this is what I was about to post. I don't think it will be on the newly created earth since I don't think God would want people bearing their own sins on His new creation.

Well, wherever it is situated will be need to be somewhere within the confines of God's creation (new heavens & earth), for it will be accessible and able to be viewed by "all flesh" (those flesh creatures who will be inhabiting God's creation at that time, us included) according to the Isaiah 66 passage.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Note also that these worship services take place every week (sabbath) and every month (new moon), so there will be familiar time constraints in place in God's new heavens and earth.

Originally Posted by stephanos

Also, wherever it is it needs to be big enough for death and hell to be cast into it.

How big do you think it needs to be? How much space do billions of human souls, fallen angels & devils take up??

Mark 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

How big do you think it needs to be? How much space do billions of human souls, fallen angels & devils take up??

Now THAT is a good question brother...
are we talking worm souls or full size human souls?

Forgive me Kiwi, you know I had to ask this...

[Brother Tim]

sort of depends on the size of the worm...

http://www.seasky.org/deep-sea/giant-tube-worm.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm..._worms02m.html

http://animals.jrank.org/pages/1689/...-ACCOUNTS.html

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Now THAT is a good question brother...
are we talking worm souls or full size human souls?

Forgive me Kiwi, you know I had to ask this...

It's probable that the soul, once it has left a man's body, takes on the exact shape and size of that man's body. In the case of damned souls, God may change their size & shape? I still think that "their worm" is referring to their soul, but whether or not it takes on the shape of an actual worm I do not know. Dr Ruckman thinks that their shape will degenerate into a form resembling their father the Devil, that old slithering serpent.

I've been thinking about the phrase Christ used three times in Mark chapter 9 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", and if this worm is another creature and not the soul itself, then the text is not teaching eternal damnation of the soul, but only teaching that the worm creature never dies? See what I mean, jellybean?

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

It's probable that the soul, once it has left a man's body, takes on the exact shape and size of that man's body. In the case of damned souls, God may change their size & shape? I still think that "their worm" is referring to their soul, but whether or not it takes on the shape of an actual worm I do not know. Dr Ruckman thinks that their shape will degenerate into a form resembling their father the Devil, that old slithering serpent.

Yep, it's in his commentary.
And like yourself, I am not sure about all this either brother.
Oliver B. Greene believed as you do, but he avoided any details.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

I've been thinking about the phrase Christ used three times in Mark chapter 9 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", and if this worm is another creature and not the soul itself, then the text is not teaching eternal damnation of the soul, but only teaching that the worm creature never dies? See what I mean, jellybean?

I don't follow you brother, but clearly you have sucked me into this cursed worm debate once more (you rascal).

Okay let's see...

The word "damnation" does not appear anywhere in this chapter, however:

I see the UNQUENCHING FIRE no less than six times in that passage.

I see the word HELL no less than three times in there.

So, whether this worm is the human soul or a devouring maggot that never dies, it would have no bearing on the fact that there is severe and everlasting BURNING punishment implied.

I still think these are the supernatural worms of hell which cover Lucifer (Satan) in Isaiah 14:9-15.

Furthermore, I think the the rich man in hell appeared to Abraham as a MAN in flames. Abraham seemed to recognize this fellow as a human, for he detailed his life on earth and referred to him as a "son" not a degenerated worm without hands or feet, etc.

Food for thought, just food for thought.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Furthermore, I think the the rich man in hell appeared to Abraham as a MAN in flames. Abraham seemed to recognize this fellow as a human, for he detailed his life on earth and referred to him as a "son" not a degenerated worm without hands or feet, etc.

That's true, but that was in "hell" NOT in the "lake of fire". Two different locations, one is a temporary 'prison' until the resurrection of the dead, and the other is their final and permanent destination, and that's the context of Isaiah 66:24 which Jesus was referring to.

Brings up an interesting point, those in hell will be resurrected before they are tossed into the lake of fire, so maybe they retain their human form until the resurrection and then begin their degeneration once in the lake!

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

That's true, but that was in "hell" NOT in the "lake of fire". Two different locations, one is a temporary 'prison' until the resurrection of the dead, and the other is their final and permanent destination, and that's the context of Isaiah 66:24 which Jesus was referring to.

Brings up an interesting point, those in hell will be resurrected before they are tossed into the lake of fire, so maybe they retain their human form until the resurrection and then begin their degeneration once in the lake!

Problem is, that would mean the human soul is a worm, and we have already covered that. These horrible creatures are not human souls, not degenerated former human-worms, not armless men, not maggot-men, not worm-boys, not homo-sapiens-worms, and not cute little wiggle-worms. The little book Ruckman preaches about called "Beyond Death's Door" by Dr. Maurice Rawlings gives a good description; they are big and nasty enough to be considered as "red snakes" by a patient who apparently died and saw them in chapter one. The description of that hellish vision convinced the atheist Rawlings to reconsider his position of "higher learning" and get saved. (the fact that the patient's hair was standing on end probably helped).

Let's review...

These creatures are made for a special purpose, they NEVER die, just like "the fire that NEVER shall be quenched." (Mark 9:43-48). These nasty worms are associated in scripture with hell and satan. (Isaiah 14:9-15).

God apparently used some unusual worms to devour Herod Agrippa in a matter of seconds (Acts 12:23), and we know God has used fiery serpents to torment and kill people (Numbers 21:6-9) so I have no problem seeing these as His instruments of eternal torment... just like the torment of those horrible flames.

To me the picture is clear; this means the child murderer who killed little six year old Adam Walsh and tossed his severed head in a Florida canal will not only BURN forever, he or she will be GNAWED UPON by worms, like rotten fruit for all eternity.