Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #131  
Old 02-04-2009, 08:07 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default the oppo text-version and argument ? all over the map

Hi Folks,

Hmm.. I was preparing a post to show a major flaw in the opponents arguments, and then I realized the terrible truth ..

We don't know what are the opponents arguments, nor their text and version. You can read long articles that they write, and you will never find out what is the actual Bible (in their view). Amazing.

Now some claim the King James Bible is mistranslated, others not at all. Some claim that Psalm 12:6-7 have nothing to do with the preservation of the word of God. Some claim that limitation only for verse Psalm 12:7b. Some claim that Psalm 12:6 is only about God keeping one promise earlier in the verse. Some claim that the problem is not really translational, or even conceptual in the idea of preservation, simply our interpretation - applying the promise of Psalm 12 to the specific tangible, readable Bible in our hands, the King James Bible. And there are more variations on their themes.

So I realized that I had to understand what the specific opponent accepted as the text and I thought that might be fairly easy. Yet a review of the version babel and their articles shows something very different. You simply never know what they claim is the true Bible text and when it comes to their actual kvetch against the King James Bible, they are all over the map.

The opponents of Psalm 12:6-7 against the King James Bible as being the preserved word of God have a hodge-podge of translations with very different meanings, even on just the one fulcrum verse, Psalm 12:7.

So this post will be simply a review of ... who says what. Then we can try to unravel the various opponents confusions.

Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


Thus we read the pure Bible .. with 'them and them'.

The cornfuseniks read four very different major possibilities and then some other ones. No wonder they don't even know what position they are taking !

The following list is of course not complete. However it gives the picture.

Oppo Variety-Pack

Us and Us
Them and Us
Them and Him
Them and Them

Them and Each
Them and Me
Them and Us (paraphrase - them=needy)
Them and Them (paraphrase - them=Oppressed)


Here is the alphabet soup.

==================================

US and US

HCSB - Holman Christian Standard Bible
You, Lord, will guard us;
You will protect us from this generation forever.

NIV - New International Version
O Lord, you will keep us safe
and protect us from such people forever.

NRSV - New Revised Standard Version
You, O Lord, will protect us;
you will guard us from this generation forever.

RSV - Revised Standard Version
Do thou, O LORD, protect us,
guard us ever from this generation.

GNT - Good News Translation
Keep us always safe, O Lord,
and preserve us from such people.

NCV - New Century Version
Lord, you will keep us safe;
you will always protect us from such people.

TEV - Today's English Version
Keep us always safe, O LORD,
and preserve us from such people.

Message (Paraphrase)
God, keep us safe from their lies,
From the wicked who stalk us with lies,

New Life Bible
O Lord, You will keep us.
You will keep us safe forever from the people of this day.

NAB - New American bible
LORD, protect us always; preserve us from this generation.

===

GREEK AND LATIN TEXTS - US & US

LXX (Brenton)
Thou, O Lord, shalt keep us,
and shalt preserve us, from this generation, and for ever.

Rheims
Thou, O Lord, wilt preserve us:
and keep us from this generation for ever.

==================================

THEM AND US

English Standard Version
You, O Lord, will keep them;
you will guard us* from this generation forever.
* Or guard him

Young's Literral
Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve them,
Thou keepest us from this generation to the age.

Amplified
You will keep them and preserve them, O Lord;
You will guard and keep us from this [evil] generation forever.

JPS-1917
Thou wilt keep them, O LORD;
Thou wilt preserve us from this generation for ever.

Soncino
Thou wilt keep them, O LORD
Thou wilt preserve us from this generation for ever.

DSS Bible
You, O LORD, will protect them;
you will preserve us from this generation forever

==================================

THEM AND HIM

NASV - New American Standard
You, O LORD, will keep them;
You will preserve him from this generation forever.

EMPHASIZED - Rotherdam
Thou, O Yahweh, wilt keep them,
--Thou wilt guard him, from this generation unto times age-abiding.

GENEVA
Thou wilt keep them, O Lord:
thou wilt preserve him from this generation for ever.

JUDAICA PRESS
You, O Lord, shall guard them;
You shall guard him from this generation forever.

AINSWORTH
Thou Jehovah wilt keep them,
will preserve him * from this generation for ever.
ie. every one of them

==================================

THEM and EACH

JPS-1985 & 2004
You, O LORD, will keep them,
guarding * each from this age * evermore.
* Meaning of Heb. uncertain

==================================

THEM AND ME

Peshitta (Lamsa from Aramaic)
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD;
thou shalt preserve me and save me from this generation for ever.

==================================

THEM and US - (Paraphrase - Defining THEM as the needy)

TNIV - Today's New International Version
You, Lord, will keep the needy safe
and will protect us forever from the wicked

==================================

THEM and THEM -- (Paraphrase - Defining THEM as Oppressed)

NLT - New Living Translation
Therefore, LORD, we know you will protect the oppressed,
preserving them forever from this lying generation,

==================================

THEM AND THEM - (Similar to KJB, often with other weaknesses)

NKJV - New King James Version
You shall keep them, O Lord,
You shall preserve them from this generation forever.

ASV - American Standard Version
Thou wilt keep them, O Jehovah,
Thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Webster
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

BBE = Bible in Basic English
You will keep them, O Lord,
you will keep them safe from this generation for ever.

ERV - English Revised Version
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Darby
Thou, Jehovah, wilt keep them,
thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Or 'him:' see end of ver. 5.

LITV - MKJV Jay Green Literal
You shall keep them, O Jehovah;
You shall preserve them from this generation forever.

NJB - New Jerusalem Bible
You, Yahweh, will watch over them,
you will protect them from that brood for ever.

World English Bible
You will keep them, Yahweh,
You will preserve them from this generation forever.

The Book of Tehillim - Moses Greenfield (1985)
Thou shalt keep them, O Lord,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Tehillim: Eis ratzon -Yaakov Yosef Iskowitz, (2004)
You, O Eternal, will guard them;
You will protect them from a generation such as this, forever.

Tehilllim Ohel Yoseph Yitzchok -Y.B. Marcus, Nissen Mangel and Eliyahu Touger (1994)
May You, O Lord, watch over them;
may You forever guard them from this generation,

In The Morning: Selected Psalms translated by Yaacov Dovid Shulman
You, God, guard them.
Keep them from this generation

==================================

In future posts I hope to highlight the slipperiness of the opposition multi-positions, and various contradictions. However for now, I just want to make it clear the babel version aspect of the cornfuseniks. Look at the most vocal opponents, and try to get a clear idea of what the word of God actually says (even before interpretation) and you will find .. mud.

By contrast, we can be most thankful for God's sure word.

Psalm 119:140
Thy word is very pure:
therefore thy servant loveth it.


Shalom,
Steven
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #132  
Old 02-05-2009, 05:26 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default one more for the road - NETBible

Hi Folks,

And we can add the NETBible (Daniel Wallace presiding) to the oddball "Them and Each" (which could be considered as a strange offshoot to "Them and Him", one of the four common translations).

NET Bible
You, LORD, will protect them;
you will continually shelter each one from these evil people,


Notice the unique strangeness, transforming "for ever" (le`ol‚m) to "continually" and dropping "this generation" (min-haddor). "Continually" is a mistranslations meant to smooth away one the contextual awkwardness problems. We see a lot of this type of translation junque in the recent push for an 'all persons' translation and interpretation, pretending it is supported by the Masoretic Hebrew text.

(Clearly if somebody wants to say they are following the Greek OT or Vulgate a "persons" translation with implied interpretation would be consistent. From the corrupt text. Although you would have to have "us" and "us".)

We have the NETBible dropping "this generation" with this note:

"The noun דוֹר (dor, “generation”) refers here to the psalmist’s contemporaries, who were characterized by deceit and arrogance (see vv. 1-2)."


The note is lame because it is used as an excuse and it offers no reason to drop the word. And replace "generation" with an out-of-place "from these evil people". This is paraphrase translation at its worse, dictating in the text your personal interpretation. When that occurs it is very likely the interpretation itself is deficient.

In this NETBible case the two textual tamperings and one very dubious translation ("each one") were combined in order to deceive the NETBible reader. To try to subtilely fight against the pure Bible words and understanding.

Psalm 12:6-7
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


Shalom,
Steven Avery

PS.
Dear reader, bear with me and sharpen your multi-tasking skills. The main problem now is .. a wealth of new and interesting material and analysis and discussion to share.
  #133  
Old 02-05-2009, 06:12 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Martin Luther's commentary and hymn

Hi Folks,

Martin Luther is referenced in the Psalm 12 discussion. Today we have the English translation of the commentary and the full text of the hymn (which is usually the only reference).

http://books.google.com/books?id=TUYEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA41

A manual of the Book of psalms: or, The subject-contents of all the Psalms by Martin Luther - translated by Henry Cole (1837)

This is a prayer containing a heavy complaint against them, who, introduce human doctrines instead of the word of God, and who, afterwards, by various new traditions and forms of worship disturb the church, and fill all things with a white-wash show of religion, and with the outward daubing of Pharisaism and hypocrisy, so that wicked men and hypocrites reign on every side, as the last verse complains. For when human doctrines have once invaded the church, they go on to rage far and wide, and spread in all directions like a cancer; there is no end to their corruption and destructive influence ; they take possession of all things and wonderfully vex and torment consciences: so that the number of the true saints and of those that truly fear God is few and small indeed : of this the infinite variety of papistical hypocrisy affords a manifest example.

But we are consoled and comforted under all these afflictions by the consideration that God always raises up in his church, sometimes in this place and sometimes in that, his salvation; that is, his word and gospel ; which, while the prophets, apostles, and other ministers throughout the world, boldly and plainly teach against all heresy, they detect and bring to light false doctrines, and overturn all false worship; for where the salvation of God is, (that is, the saving word of Christ and his gospel) it burns up and consumes, like a suddenly-kindled fire, all the chaff and straw of human traditions, and delivers oppressed consciences.

This, however, never takes place without afflictions, and the cross in various forms. But as gold and silver are proved by the fire, so the true knowledge and purity of the word is not preserved in the church but by means of the truly spiritual and godly, who for the word's sake are exercised without and within by Satan, with various temptations: for these, like gold, are proved in the fire, and thus grow daily and flourish in the knowledge of the gospel, and the great things of God.

Now Luther's commentary is not the softest, clearest read, yet it is sensible. Here are the two critical phrases for our discussion of his application.

we are consoled and comforted ... God always raises up in his church, sometimes in this place and sometimes in that, his salvation; that is, his word and gospel ;

the true knowledge and purity of the word is not preserved in the church but by means of the truly spiritual and godly


Note especially that Martin Luther is discussing how the purity of the word is preserved.

And here is what is said about the Martin Luther hymn, again with the truth being preserved.

http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl040003.htm
Psalm 12:7 and Bible Preservation - David Cloud
(from Peter Van Kleeck)

"Martin Luther's German Bible ... Following the arrangement of this Psalm, Luther penned a hymn, two stanzas of which reflect his understanding of verse 6 and 7: ...

"Thy truth thou wilt preserve, O Lord, from this vile generation..."

In poetic form, Luther grasps the significance of this verse both for the preservation of those who are oppressed and for the Word of God. The two-pronged significance of this interpretation to both people and God's words in Luther's Psalter was to have wide-ranging significance in the English Bible tradition.

And in fact, the hymm is a very pleasant and solid hymn, with application to our current discussions ! The first link is for the musically inclined.

http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=c...html&Itemid=27
Ach Gott, vom Himmel siehí darein.
Look down, O Lord, from Heaven behold.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RCtIBt5q_7QC&pg=PA42
Hymns of Martin Luther

http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/luther/hy...ml/behold.homl

"Look down, O Lord, from heaven behold"
by Martin Luther, 1483-1546
Text From:
THE HYMNS OF MARTIN LUTHER
(New York: Charles Scribner'sSons, 1883), p. 7

1. Look down, O Lord, from heaven behold,
And let thy pity waken!
How few the flock within thy fold,
Neglected and forsaken!
Almost thou'lt seek for faith in vain,
And those who should thy truth maintain
Thy Word from us have taken.

2. With frauds which they themselves invent
Thy truth they have confounded;
Their hearts are not with one consent
On thy pure doctrine grounded;
And, whilst they gleam with outward show,
They lead thy people to and fro,
In error's maze astounded.

3. God surely will uproot all those
With vain deceits who store us,
With haughty tongue who God oppose,
And say, "Who'll stand before us?
By right or might we will prevail;
What we determine cannot fail,
For who can lord it o'er us?"

4. For this, saith God, I will arise,
These wolves my flock are rending;
I've heard my people's bitter sighs
To heaven my throne ascending:
Now will I up, and set at rest
Each weary soul by fraud opprest,
The poor with might defending.

5. The silver seven times tried is pure
From all adulteration;
So, through God's word, shall men endure
Each trial and temptation:
Its worth gleams brighter through the cross,
And, purified from human dross,
It shines through every nation.

6. Thy truth thou wilt preserve, O Lord,
From this vile generation;
Make us to lean upon thy word,
With calm anticipation.
The wicked walk on every side
When, 'mid thy flock, the vile abide
In power and exaltation.
__________________________________________________ __________
Notes:
Text: Psalm 12-"Salvum me fac, Domine.
Hymn II from "The Hymns of Martin Luther"
Author: Martin Luther
Translated by: Frances Elizabeth Cox
Titled: "Ach Gott, vom Himmel sich' darein"
1st Melody: "Es ist das Heil uns kommen her,", 1524
Harmony: A. Haupt, 1869
2nd Melody: from Klug's Gesanbuch, 1543
Harmony: A. Haupt, 1869
1st Published in:"Eight Songs"
Town: Wittenberg, 1524
__________________________________________________ _________

Shalom,
Steven
  #134  
Old 02-05-2009, 06:55 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Pure Words Integrity Award

Hi Folks,

To finish up the morning, we will give the :

Pure Words Integrity Award

To .. a modern version translator ! For his willingness to speak clearly and accurately about the translation and interpretation of Psalm 12.

William D. Barrick has translated a smidgen here and there . For over two decades. In Bangladesh and the USA .. working on the English Standard Version .. and .. the NETBible !?

Hmm.....

http://www.drbarrick.org/Website%20Files/Ps%20012.pdf
Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs:
The Master Musician’s Melodies
Adult Sunday School Placerita Baptist Church (2003)
by William D. Barrick, Th.D.
Professor of OT, The Master’s Seminary


William Barrick gives the Psalm with NKJV verses !?
And he references the excellent Martin Luther hymn.

Hmm...

This is one section.

5.0 Praying Psalm 12
Lord, help me! [v. 1]
Help the godly person to stand and prevail. [v. 1]
Oh, God, shut the mouths of the wicked. [vv. 3-4]
Thank You, Lord, for Your pure and precious Word. [v. 6]
Give me a greater desire for Your Word, Father. [v. 7]
Cleanse me with Your Word. [vv. 6-7]


Now, hold on to your seats.
Commentary on verse 6 and 7.

v. 6 “Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times.”

* Figure of smelting and refining.

* Implications for bibliology (doctrine concerning the Word of God):

Authenticity and integrity of God’s Word: The Bible is truly
God’s revealed truth and is dependable. Cf. Daniel 10:21; Psalm
119:160; John 17:17.

Inerrancy and infallibility of God’s Word: The Bible does not
contain error and does not deceive or lead astray. Cf. Psalm 19:7;
Proverbs 6:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:6.

Preciousness of God’s Word: The Bible is dear to the believer and
extremely profitable for spiritual nourishment and growth. Cf.
Psalm 19:10; 1 Peter 2:2.

v. 7 “You shall keep them”

The “poor and needy” of v. 5?

The “words” of v. 6 This is the better view.


Thank you, Professor Barrick.
We present you with the :

Psalm 12 Pure Words Integrity Award !

This is irrespective of your overall views on the King James Bible and textual and translational theory. And whatever the pluses and minuses of your overall body of work. Note: there is very interesting creationary writing from Professor Barrick and much of his material is an edifying read eg. the Psalm 22 article.

We appreciate your understanding Psalm 12 and we thank you for putting your views out for the public, for any and all to read. We realize that you were directly referencing.

"Thou shalt keep them, O LORD" (KJB)

And not specifically, directly referencing :

"thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

By your usage of the NKJV (them..them) and the lack of any stated counterpoint and limitation, and especially the included teachings above and the Martin Luther hymn reference, it does appear that your comment is reasonable to understand as your view of the whole verse 7. Either way, it is such a refreshing breath of fresh air for a scholar today (outside of the King James Bible defenders) to speak as you do above about the beautiful Psalm 12 and the preservation of the word of God that the award stands - even if your view on Psalm 12:7b is nuanced or different .

Shalom,
Steven

PS.
The verse references from above are deserving of a separate post.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-05-2009 at 07:08 AM.
  #135  
Old 02-05-2009, 09:04 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Authenticity and integrity of Godís Word

Hi Folks,

The Psalm 12 verse references from William D. Barrick .

Authenticity and integrity of Godís Word: The Bible is truly
Godís revealed truth and is dependable. Cf. Daniel 10:21; Psalm
119:160; John 17:17.

Daniel 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth:
and there is none that holdeth with me in these things,
but Michael your prince.

Psalms 119:160
Thy word is true from the beginning:
and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


Inerrancy and infallibility of Godís Word: The Bible does not
contain error and does not deceive or lead astray. Cf. Psalm 19:7;
Proverbs 6:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:6.

Psalms 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul:
the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp;
and the law is light;
and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

1 Thessalonians 2:3
For our exhortation was not of deceit,
nor of uncleanness,
nor in guile:

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

1 John 4:6
We are of God:
he that knoweth God heareth us;
he that is not of God heareth not us.
Hereby know we the spirit of truth,
and the spirit of error


Preciousness of Godís Word: The Bible is dear to the believer and
extremely profitable for spiritual nourishment and growth. Cf.
Psalm 19:10; 1 Peter 2:2.

Psalms 19:10
More to be desired are they than gold,
yea, than much fine gold:
sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

1 Peter 2:2
As newborn babes,
desire the sincere milk of the word,
that ye may grow thereby:


Shalom,
Steven Avery
  #136  
Old 02-05-2009, 09:27 AM
Tandi
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Steven Avery.... I like to take one interesting item and really study it from many angles. In so doing I am placed in a position of seeking out new vistas, new background and understanding, new learning.
Thank you for the inspiration, Steven. This thread is awesome. Keep writing.....and continue to salt your research with your colorful commentary. The information gets tedious at times without the gentle humor. I love the way you make your points and really nail it. The issue becomes clear as day. I hope you write a book eventually. Godspeed as you continue to defend the integrity of Scripture. May it result in turning the hearts of the doubters and skeptics.

Shalom,

Tandi
  #137  
Old 02-05-2009, 05:07 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default sololoquy

Hi Folks,

Thanks so much, Tandi, appreciate the encouragement !

What is surprising for me is how a thread like this unfolds while in process. One question leads to a challenge that leads to an idea unto some research over to a concept resulting in a refutation which leads to a defense of the word of God ! Very edifying for me to be a vessel for finding and sharing info.

The only "problem" is that ... while I may have thought I was almost "done" a lot earlier, the more I have researched, the more insights and vistas opened up ! A nice problem.

Here is the planned itinerary for the next few posts, an outline, (usually I simply seek to follow the Holy Spirit post by post).

Psalm 12

Excellent Neale - Littledale source
Michael Ayguan
An interesting point made by .. Doug Kutilek !
Oops, a problem in the writings of .. Doug Kutilek

And interweaved.

Accurately relating translation to interpretation
Various awkwardnesses of the "poor and needy" for ever
Kutilek vs. White vs Combs vs ...


This may change overnight, or over-hour, however I think you will find each point of interest. When involved in a study like this, I simply have the ideas at first, based on reading, then the posts have to be developed. For those who know inventory control, this is the JIT (Just-in-Time) concept of production.

Oh, one more point of interest. There is as excellent book that we discussed on these topics .. the one by Kent Brandenburg. Also the article by Peter Van Kleeck. Everyone should read them. Except .. I haven't read them yet . (Small excepts on the web excepted, which may or may not be a major part of the Peter Van Kleeck paper and are a small part of Kent's book.)

Yep, I am looking forward to getting the material, most especially Kent's. However in a certain sense, I feel I can better dedicate, and better consecrate, the studies, by simply first developing the concepts from the research clearly and then, later .. comparing notes and references and ideas.

And I will also thank an opponent of the King James Bible, one who used to post on this very forum, for bringing forth the scaffolding harumphs and confused arguments and various nonsense diversions and lack of sense and false accusations that really spurred me to get much more involved in Psalm 12 -- to learn more about the beautiful verses. Quite often, what is meant for ill, God turns to good, when the love of the Lord Jesus Christ is in our hearts and we seek to do the will of God.

And I also appreciate that we have a forum where we can research formally and informally with support and counterpoint maintained on a high level.

Shalom
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-05-2009 at 05:17 PM.
  #138  
Old 02-05-2009, 06:19 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Psalms: From Primitive and Mediaeval Writers - Neale & Littledale

Hi Folks,

An interesting book on the Psalms by John Mason Neale and Richard Frederick Littledale, involving rather incredible scholarship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mason_Neale
John Mason Neale (January 24, 1818 - August 6, 1866), was an English divine, scholar and hymn-writer.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HNgpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA364
Littledate, Richard Frederick (1833-1890), Anglican controversialist,

These two men wrote an unusual Commentary on the Psalms.

http://www.andrewespress.com/neale.html
A Commentary on the Psalms
http://books.google.com/books?id=B_U2AAAAMAAJ
A Commentary on the Psalms: From Primitive and Mediaeval Writers : and from the Various Office-books and Hymns of the Roman, Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Gallican, Greek, Coptic, Armenian, and Syriac Rites - John Mason Neale, Richard Frederick Littledale

You can see some of the sources they referenced

http://books.google.com/books?id=CD77u9SRGx4C&pg=PA84
S Augustine, Michael Ayguan, Bruno of Aste, Cassiodorus, Balthazar Corderius, Dionysius the Carthusian, Gerhohus, Hilary, Lorinus, Ludolphus, Parez, Remigius of S. Germanus, Euthymius Zigabenus.

And the section describing their commentaries starts at p. 75.

Psalm 12:6-7 begins on p.180 (verse numbers offset by 1, our verse 5 counts as their v.5 & 6) and goes to p. 181. http://books.google.com/books?id=CD77u9SRGx4C&pg=PA180 You will see the Augustine Commentary from above given, also Ambrose Lorinus, Parez, Chrysostom and more, plus verse references.

And here is the text for verse 7.

Thou shalt keep them, O Lord : thou shalt preserve him from this generation for ever.

=====
COMMENTARY

Keep them: that is, not as the passage is generally taken, Keep or guard Thy people, but

Thou shalt keep, or make good, Thy words: and by so doing,
shalt preserve him--him, the needy, him, the poor--from this generation.

Thou shalt keep Thy word
, -- "Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and He shall nourish thee;"

Thy word,
"I will inform thee, and teach thee in the way wherein thou shalt go"

Thy word,
"Fear not, little flock ; it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom;"

and so, preserving him from this generation, shalt hereafter give him a portion with that happier generation, the general assembly of the First-born which are written in heaven. .

=====


We will look at this more shortly, this little commentary has had a surprisingly central role in the current debate, and at the very least it can be a springboard for studies.

Shalom,
Steven
  #139  
Old 02-05-2009, 07:03 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Michael Ayguan

Hi Folks,

From this book, we learn who is Michael Ayguan, rather impressively.

http://books.google.com/books?id=CD77u9SRGx4C&pg=PA81
A Commentary on the Psalms - Neale & Littledale

(11.) To my own mind the Commentary of Michael Ayguan. (+ 1416) is on the whole, the best of those that have been contributed to the treasury of the Church; though wanting the unction of Gerhohus and Dionysius, and the marvellous Scriptural knowledge of S. Augustine. To me it has been, as it were, a dear companion for the last fifteen years: during that period I have read it through three times, and each time with a higher admiration of its marvellous depth, richness, and beauty. While he draws unsparingly on the treasures of those who preceded him, more especially on S. Augustine, S. Jerome, Cassiodorus, S. Gregory, and Venerable Bede, he has much that is original,—surprisingly much, considering how many authors have devoted themselves to the same task. I employ the Lyons edition of 1673, a noble folio, of more than 1100 pages in closely printed double columns. The work long went under the title of that of the Auctor Incognitus: its writer being unknown. Michael Ayguan, a native of Bologna, was born about 1340, and entered at an early age into the Carmelite Order, of which he subsequently became General. In the Great Schism he was a strenuous supporter of the party of Urban VI., and, after a long and laborious life, died in the place of his birth, Dec. 1, 1416. Fully two-ninths of the following pages are derived, directly and indirectly, from this great work.


Charles Spurgeon references this Commentary some and Neale and Littledale are probably our one main source for English translation of the Latin work of Ayguan today.

I always get a bit puzzled and concerned when names are bandied about that we do not recognize. (As could happen when Michael Ayguan was quoted on Psalm 12.) Now we know who is Michael Ayguan, the name has a background. And here we have one of the very top historical commentators on the Psalms, and who even recognizes his name ? Yet modern commentators get involved in the most arcane and oddball theories, without the base of historic writer commentaries and history.

Next we will try to connect a couple of dots. Try to bear with, dear reader. The hope, the goal, is to make the Psalm commentary history come alive, we don't just need dry facts, we need to sense the life and heart of the men who shared the word of God. (This aspect is something I have learned studying the Johannine Comma and I believe it has wide application.)

Shaom,
Steven Avery

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-05-2009 at 07:08 PM.
  #140  
Old 02-05-2009, 08:37 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Michael Ayguan commentary verse refs & context

Hi Folks,

Thou shalt keep them, O Lord : thou shalt preserve him from this generation for ever.

Now we review the commentary with the verse references in the margin added.

=====
COMMENTARY

Keep them: that is, not as the passage is generally taken, Keep or guard Thy people, but

Thou shalt keep, or make good, Thy words: and by so doing,
shalt preserve him--him, the needy, him, the poor--from this generation.

Thou shalt keep Thy word,
-- "Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and He shall nourish thee;"

Psalm 55:22 (#23 in text)
Cast thy burden upon the LORD,
and he shall sustain thee:
he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.


Thy word,
"I will inform thee, and teach thee in the way wherein thou shalt go"

Psalm 32:8 (#9 in text)
I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go:
I will guide thee with mine eye.


Thy word,
"Fear not, little flock ; it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom;"

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock;
for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

and so, preserving him from this generation, shalt hereafter give him a portion with that happier generation, the general assembly of the First-born which are written in heaven. .

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect


=====

The sharp reader will notice that this is the commentary of Michael Ayguan (Ay. in margin). This commentary is referenced in:

http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl040003.htm
The Translational And Exegetical Rendering Of Psalm 12:7 Primarily Considered In The Churchly Tradition Of The 16Th And 17Th Centuries And Its Expression In The Reformation English Bibles: THEE GENIUS OF AMBIGUITY, By Peter Van Kleeck

This essay will show the diversity of the textual and exegetical tradition of Psalm 12:6-7 ... By so doing, the inadequacy of modern renditions of Psalm 12:7 will be exposed...

"Michael Ayguan (1340-1416) ... On Psalm 12:7 Ayguan comments, Keep them: that is, not as the passage is generally taken, Keep or guard Thy people, but Thou shalt keep, or make good, Thy words: and by doing so, shalt preserve him--him, the needy, him, the poor--from this generation..."

Reasonable enough. Not sure if Peter Van Kleeck says much more from the David Cloud extract. Now we know the Ayguan reference in more fulness. Michael Ayguan shows us that the inferior understanding "keep or guard thy people" was general in his time. However this would be no surprise at all in 1400, when the OT Latin text was often the center of Christian attention (in fact, it is rather surprising that Michael Ayguan saw what he did nonetheless.. did he read both the Hebrew and Latin ? were there variants in the Latin ? All this I am not sure .. my conjecture will be for now that he worked with the Hebrew text as primary, Latin as secondary. This may be discoverable within Neale and Littledale.)

All this changed when the Reformation in the 1500s moved to the direct translation from the Hebrew Bible, until then most non-Jewish commentators were actually working with "us and us", thus "people" or "poor and needy". Until the 1500s the bulk of "words" understanding was Jewish commentators, Ibn Ezra fullly and Rashi partially, and a Psalms midrash to research. The times were changing in the 1500s, where we go to Luther and Calvin and the Geneva Bible as primary sources, along with John Rogers and Becke, Coverdale and Matthew. Maybe we should summarize all those pre-KJB Reformation evidences in one post, including Ainsworth around 1610, although to a large extent that is exactly what is done in David Cloud quoting Peter Van Kleeck. So we are ok on that for now.

We also know that Michael Ayguan wrote a very strong commentary that views Psalm 12:7a, but not Psalm 12:7b as applying to the words of God ("split interpretation").

No huge revelations in these three posts, yet some fascinating history, blanks filled in, dots connected. Next we will watch the scholarly reaction of Doug Kutilek.

Get your dunce-caps ready.

And remember Doug Kutilek is the 'premier' anti-Psalm-12-preservation writer, the only one we know that actually wrote a full paper to try to deny the connection, the one that is quoted by others. We already saw he pulled a real slick deception on Rashi, next Doug Kutilek on .. the above.

Shalom,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-05-2009 at 09:04 PM.
 

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