Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-02-2009, 10:57 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Eaton - the main Hebrew tradition

Hi Folks,

A little sidenote, a puzzle solved.
Psalm 12:7 - Commentaries

J. H. Eaton - Torch Bible Commentaries (1967)
"...but we may rather follow the main Hebrew tradition:
"Thou O Lord shalt keep them (i.e. watch over the words to fulfill them, Jer. 1:12)..."

Jeremiah 1:12
Then said the LORD unto me,
Thou hast well seen:
for I will hasten my word to perform it.

The question was how John H. Eaton referenced the "main Hebrew tradition" if Rashi and Kimchi had both not applied keep to words. With Ibn Ezra taking the words side. Now we have the answer. Rashi had been misrepresented and in Psalm 12:7a does apply 'keep' to words, against most of the modernist weak interpretations. (And we will try to track down the fulness of Kimchi's interpretation.)

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
Old 02-02-2009, 11:19 AM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 891
Default Re: " Psalm 12:7 - the Promise of Preservation"

Aloha brother Steve,
"Note what Doug Kutilek offered as the Rashi interpretation is actually his second, alternative interpretation. (The Judaica Press publication only gives the first interpretation, so that cannot be the reason, my conjecture is that Doug Kutileki looked up a translation from Old French to Hebrew or Aramaic and then deliberately parsed the information for his own purposes. If I am wrong on this I would be happy to be corrected and I acknowledge that this is all new as of yesterday and no effort has been made to check with Doug Kutilek.)"
Early on in my studies on the issue of "Which Bible", one of the many things that helped convince me of its perfection was the crafty, shifty, devious, underhanded, and dishonest manner in which the detractors of the King James Bible handled ALL of the evidence: {Internal (within the KJB Text Itself); Historical (Old & New Testament <> Transmission of the Text <> Church History, etc.); The "Manipulation" of the Manuscript Evidence; and the Invention of "Fallacious Theories" (Griesbach’s elaborate Manuscript "FAMILIES" HYPOTHESIS; the "LUCIAN RECENSION"; the highly complex Westcott and Hort "TEXTUAL THEORY"; etc.; etc.); to bolster their claims against the King James Bible, or the Texts from which it was derived.

The deceitful manner in which these so-called "scholars" operate amounts to TREASON, and Almighty God hates "treachery" even more than "backsliding"!

Isaiah 24:16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.

Jeremiah 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

The testimony of the Holy Scriptures is crystal clear: God HATES treachery! And these "Christian scholars" have dealt treacherously with God's Holy words! They do not have a "love of the truth", but instead are found to be fighting against God Himself!

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

After dealing with these people for over 40 years I have come to the conclusion that nothing will change their minds. Their hearts are set in stone, and nothing short of the personal intervention of Almighty God is going to change the course of their erroneous and fraudulent "researches"; or influence their mistaken, misleading, and unfounded "conclusions".

When it comes to the Holy word of God - they are REPROBATE! And I personally believe that God has given them over to a "reprobate mind" - at least as far as His Holy words are concerned.

I greatly appreciate your painstaking research on these issues; it reinforces my own research into these issues back in the late 1960's, the 1970's, and the 1980's. I'm glad that someone has stepped up to contend with these disingenuous "scholars" - I have grown weary of dealing with these people after all of these years.

Keep up the good work!
Old 02-03-2009, 03:18 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Hi Folks,

Originally Posted by George
Aloha brother Steve... I greatly appreciate your painstaking research on these issues; it reinforces my own research into these issues back in the late 1960's, the 1970's, and the 1980's ...(Keep up the good work!
Thanks George. I like to take one interesting item and really study it from many angles. In so doing I am placed in a position of seeking out new vistas, new background and understanding, new learning.

Before returning to Rashi and other items in process (hmm.. can I get to the University and look up William Braude Midrash on Psalms ? Even the Judaica store might have the book on the shelf ) I will share a tidbit of interest.

Above I have been emphasizing :

"thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever"

As being particularly sensible for the words of God. And particularly awkward for the poor and needy. Delitzsch accidentally highlights this in his modernist commentary when he says, with a straight face:

The "preserving for ever" is so constant, that neither now nor at any future time will they succumb to this generation. (Bible Commentary on the Psalms - Franz Delitzsch p. 197)

By the later 1800s many translation theories had changed, often under modernist German (often unbelieving or facade-believing) influence. e.g. Delitzsch was one of the primary movers in changing Isaiah 13:15, which has its own thread. By this period the quality of the Commentaries had generally gone way downhill, which you can see by .. simply reading.

As a little aside Arno Clement Gaebelein (The Annotated Bible, 1921) tests us that:

"The great Leipzig professor, Franz Delitzsch, also joined the band of 'scientific butchers,' and declared that the second part of Isaiah is of post-exilic authorship."

Thus such a scholar, sans a solid Bible-believing base, could write about "nor at any future time will they succumb to this generation" without any concern that the logic is upside-down.

Old 02-03-2009, 06:31 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Rashi on Psalm 12:7b - thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever

Hi Folks,

Now we move to Rashi on Psalm 12:7b.

Psalm 12:7
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Preserve them from this generation that they do not learn from (this Generation's) behaviour to be informers. Another equally plausible interpretation (of v. 8 is the following). Keep them (ie. those poor and impoverished who are persecuted from (being victimized by) this generation, who are informers.
(Rashi's Commentary on Psalms - translated by Mayer I. Gruber - 2008)

Clearly this is an unusual commentary. The reason is explained in an article by Avi Baumol which discusses the commentaries of Rashi, Radak and Malbim. The Avi Baumol commentary itself is interesting, mixed, yet it really explains the Rashi context.

Tehillim: The Book of Psalms by Avi Baumol.

Psalm 12, in a word, is about words. Our greatest medium of expression is indeed King David's most precious vehicle for connecting to his creator. However, there is a grave danger that surrounds the use, or rather abuse, of words ...

Psalm 12 represents a significant change in David's attitude in his Psalms. It is an enclosed unit devoted almost entirely to one topic: words. It does not have to do with David's suffering, or his despair. Nor is there a plea for salvation in general. Rather, David has one thing on his mind:

"Save O God, for honesty, integrity is gone, trustworthiness has been stripped from man. Lies and deceit speaks one to the other, a language of smoothness, superficial communication. Let God obliterate all who smooth talk, those who speak with high-flouting language.

Let God obliterate those who brazenly state, our words will strengthen us, we are our own masters. They who prey on the downtrodden, they who embezzle from the simple. I shall arise, says God, wage war against those who breathe out erring air. God's words are pure, as molten silver, glowing from the furnace. You God (alone) will guard the downtrodden, watch over this generation."

... Rashi ... remains true to the tradition and maintains that the psalms were written by David, and are about David.

As David was dodging King Shaul's spear, he experienced an eerie alliance from people living in the wilderness of Zif. They accepted him and offered him peace. At the same time, using their 'other hearts,' they went to Shaul and betrayed David's hideout, waiting for a reward for David's ultimate demise.

It was not the people of Zif who were killing David; they merely spoke words to Shaul, informing on David, and causing a near tragic ending to David's life. Against them, David speaks out, 'where are the honest and wholehearted people in the world? Why must I encounter smooth talkers who speak with one heart but adhere to the other? Let God strike down those who talk with such haughtiness...'

Rashi finds an historical background to trace the motivation for David's psalm.

Thus we can well understand the Rashi emphasis on "informers". Rashi is looking through a historical lens with David at the center. This is something he does on many Psalms, an interesting example being Psalm 2 where Rashi avoids the powerful Messianic interpretation that is later given by Ibn Ezra.

Within his lens, Rashi offers two interpretations. Both bump up against the difficulty mentioned in the last post.

from this generation for ever.


A) Preserve them from this generation that they do not learn from (this Generation's) behaviour to be informers.

B) Keep them (ie. those poor and impoverished who are persecuted from (being victimized by) this generation, who are informers.

Neither of these are not really preservation in our traditional positive sense, and our protective sense, they are more "keep away from .." in the sense of separation. The first is close in sense to :

1 Corinthians 15:33
Be not deceived:
evil communications corrupt good manners.

While the second is to avoid the evil done by informers. (This is closer to our traditional sense, albeit with the imposed limitations of the informer context.)

Thus Rashi has to simply bypass:

from this generation for ever.

So while Rashi's interpretation of Psalm 12:7b can be seen as an interesting midrashic attempt, it is not really strong as the pshat, the simple and clear reading of the Bible text. Rashi is working with a limited Davidic lens and he even has to omit discussing the salient "for ever" (such as we saw in the Delitzsch flying-in-time leap). In order to try to work the verse into being about not becoming informers and being protected from informers, the needs of those around David.

Fascinating, yet not of great significance. The Rashi usage of Psalm 12:7a for keeping Torah on the hearts of men and the Midrash on Psalms full reference (to track down) are the main elements of interest. And the Rashi interpretation of Psalm 12:6 is quite nice.

Now, it might be good to mention that there is nothing at all in these Hebraic studies that even remotely allows for the common error of translating Psalm 12:7b as "preserve us" rather than the correct "preserve them". From a strictly translation point-of-view this is the major error made on the verses in the modern versions. Do the modern versions mistranslate deliberately in order to avoid the application of Psalm 12 to the preservation of the words of God ?

Returning to Rashi ...
solabiblia, I hope this has been helpful in answering your question.

Steven Avery

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-03-2009 at 06:52 AM.
Old 02-04-2009, 01:00 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Tehillim (Psalms) - 2 recent translations

Hi Folks,

Remember how John H. Eaton discussed the "main Hebrew tradition" .

"But we may rather follow the main Hebrew tradition: "Thou O Lord shalt keep them (i.e. watch over the words to fulfill them, Jer. 1:12)" (Torch Bible Commentaries, 1967).

Having discussed the Rashi commentary, I would like to look at a couple of more recent Jewish translations of Psalm 12. More from the religious Jewish publications as the less religious tends to simply follow modern scholarship ideas.

These two recent publications of Psalms will give an idea of the translations. First:

Psalm 12:6-7 (KJB)
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Next the Hebrew traditional understanding expressed in recent translation.
Tehillim: Eis ratzon : a time of favor - translated Yaakov Yosef Iskowitz, 2004

The words of the Eternal are pure words;
like purified silver, revealed to the world,
refined seven times.
You, O Eternal, will guard them;
You will protect them from a generation such as this, forever.
Tehilllim Ohel Yoseph Yitzchok -Y.B. Marcus, Nissen Mangel and Eliyahu Touger (1994)

The words of the Lord are pure words,
like silver refined in the finest earthen crucible,
purified seven times.
May You, O Lord, watch over them;
may You forever guard them from this generation,
[in which] the wicked walk on every side;
when they are exalted it is a disgrace to mankind.

In both cases it is easy to see that the flow of the verses, the simple and clear meaning, is the watching, guarding, protecting of the words of the LORD.

Here is another, on the web.
In The Morning: Selected Psalms translated by Yaacov Dovid Shulman

The words of God
Are pure words.
They are silver refined
From a caldron onto the ground
And filtered seven times.
You, God, guard them.
Keep them from this generation
From the evil-doers who prowl in a circle,
When depravity is exalted amidst all men.


Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-04-2009 at 01:14 AM.
Old 02-04-2009, 01:09 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Psalm 12 in poetic form

Hi Folks,

There is a powerpoint presentation on the Psalms, entertaining and reasonably informative, albeit with some mishegas, paying attention to the deficient form critics. Yet also good material. Rollin J. Blackburn prepared this for teaching in seminary and uses the NKJV in the text (oops) .. what is fascinating is that Psalm 12 is laid out in a poetic fashion, which highlights the true interpretation. Possibly they forgot to check with the modernist interpreters and took the simple and clear path. And the two verses are put in their own stanza.
The Psalms
Sepher Tehillim (p.39)

The words of the LORD are pure words,
.............Like silver tried in a furnace of earth,
.............Purified seven times. You shall keep them,
O LORD, You shall preserve them from this generation forever.

The same poetic style would look very nice with the pure KJB words, (putting aside not using indent HTML).


Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-04-2009 at 01:35 AM.
Old 02-04-2009, 05:25 AM
Will Kinney's Avatar
Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Colorado, a beautiful state with four distinct seasons; sometimes in the same day!
Posts: 252

Hi Steve. Thanks for these additional sources.

Will K
Old 02-04-2009, 06:45 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Sfar Emes - Yehudah Aryeh Leib Alter

Hi Folks,

Originally Posted by Will Kinney
Hi Steve. Thanks for these additional sources.
Most welcome, Will. After noticing how Rashi was misrepresented in the anti-preservation article of Doug Kutilek, I figgerred the Jewish interps could use a closer check. Where possible I prefer to track down a primary source, as we saw with Rashi that often tells you a lot more. Especially when the existing summary or snippet is given by a writer struggling to deny the tangible preservation of the pure and perfect word of God.

Here is another one of some interest and strength, that is complementary to Samson Raphael Hirsch. Sfas Emes is:
Yehudah Aryeh Leib Alter (1847–1905), also known by the title of his main work, the Sfas Emes, was a Hasidic rabbi who succeeded his grandfather, Rabbi Yitzchak Meir Alter, as the av beis din (head of the rabbinical court) and Rav of Góra Kalwaria, Poland (known in Yiddish as the town of Ger), and succeeded the Rebbe, Reb Heynekh of Alexander, as Rebbe of the Gerrer Hasidim ... Rabbi Yehudah Aryeh Leib was one of the greatest Torah scholars of his generation,
Sfas Emes
Shavuos By Nosson Chayim Leff

... the Sfas Emes quotes from Tehillim (12:7-8): "Imros HaShem imaros tehoros ... " (ArtScroll: "The words of HaShem are pure words; like purified silver ... refined sevenfold ("shiva'sayim") ...

The pasuk continues: "May, You, HaShem, protect them ...". The Sfas Emes explains that the "them" which the pasuk is asking HaShem to protect refers to the words of Torah. Their purity will be preserved by their being kept in the purity of our hearts. The Zohar (and the Sfas Emes) are telling us is that now, at our Matan Torah, we too should prepare our hearts to be vessels suitable for preserving the Torah in its purity.

.... The Medrash explains that Dovid Hamelech composed that perek (chapter) (Tehilim, 12) in a very specific historical context. .... Dovid Hamelech prayed to HaShem to protect them (the bright scholars and their Learning).

Clearly there is a lot of emphasis in the hasidic interpretation that is mystical, arcane and away from our Christian perspective. It is likely that Samson Hirsch is more down to earth, reflecting the streams of Jewish thought, hasidic and mitnagdim (which would be the more traditional 'orthodox').

From Leib, we see clearly that "protect them" is, as with Rashi, applied to protecting the words of God (Torah) so as to be efficacious and lasting in the hearts of the people. In the section above, we cannot tell if Lieb specifically discusses the second part of the verse, however we can see once again that the main Hebrew tradition is that :

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,

"them" Is a direct reference to the immediately preceding subject :

The words of the LORD

Old 02-04-2009, 07:20 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default whither the preservation opponents belligerance ?

Hi Folks,

Now I would like to emphasize that the belligerence against the King James Bible defender understanding of Psalm 12 has always been a curious, even dark, phenomenon. First, these men are usually quick to proclaim the truth of the preservation of God's word (what they would call "the message") yet they are insistent that we are not supposed to see this in the beautiful Psalm !

Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Yet the simple read of Psalm 12 (if the translation is not tampered to "preserve us" or in other ways, another critical trick of deception) clearly fits extremely well the preservation of the word of God. In three complementary yet distinct ways:

a) localized flow of the words - verse 6 to verse 7
b) the theme of the whole Psalm (post #8)
c) theme of the Bible as a whole. (post #5)

Remember that many of the most complementary verses are in the NT and would be out of the perspective of the recent discussion of Jewish commentary.

Worthy of special emphasis is :

1 Peter 1:23-25
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass
The word of the Lord endureth for ever

Which very neatly ties together the very same themes as our verses.

On page one of this thread is a partial list of complementary verses.

The belligerent adversary has to go so far as to claim a total disconnect between :

The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.


Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,

This is prima facie a very difficult and dubious position to take. And on closer examination it becomes that much more dubious.

One of the ironies though is that they have to take the belligerent position. After all, when you look at the two phrases :

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,

thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

It is hard to see how anyone, with a straight face, can claim that the two "thems" have totally different referents !

Another irony is that it is the second "them" that contextually most clearly refers to the words of God. The critical phrase that shows this is "from this generation for ever".

In fact, the commentators who fell for the "only people" view will comment, in their more lucid moments, on the awkwardnesses in their understandings. We see them giving strained attempts to account for the "from this generation for ever", a phrase which simply does not fit well to comfort for the poor and needy. Those commentators also struggle with the strangeness of the Psalm moving (in their interpretation) from victory and comfort in preservation of the poor and needy unto despair over the wicked and vile who oppress the poor and needy at the end of the Psalm.

Later I hope to put together a couple of posts shortly showing those awkwardnesses, using mostly the words of the commentators themselves, even the ones stuck with the awkward and ill-fitting "only persons" interp. (The problems are easy to see, but in their zeal to attack the preservation of God's word, the modern version proponents operate on a very low scholastic level.) Granted these are in a sense secondary issues, however in the context of this thread and study they are worthy of note.

Another point that would be good to review are the various interpreters who give a dual or mixed interpretation, how they try to take that position, what makes sense, what does not, and more.


Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-04-2009 at 07:26 AM.
Old 02-04-2009, 08:54 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Augustine on Psalm 12

Hi Folks,

The first example of an awkward interpretation is early and interesting. Although the following is shared for more general purposes.

We have Augustine, around 420 AD. Giving us an historical window for our multi-dimensional study . Now remember Augustine was stuck with the deficient Greek text with "preserve us" - so we know he has to have a "persons" interpretation.

Exposition on Psalm 12 - Augustine

The words of the Lord are pure words. This is in the person of the Prophet himself, The words of the Lord are pure words. He says pure, without the alloy of pretence. For many preach the truth impurely; (Philippians 1:16) for they sell it for the bribe of the advantages of this life. Of such the Apostle says, that they declared Christ not purely. Silver tried by the fire for the earth. These words of the Lord by means of tribulations approved to sinners. Purified seven times: by the fear of God, by godliness, by knowledge, by might, by counsel, by understanding, by wisdom. (Isaiah 11:2) For seven steps also of beatitude there are, which the Lord goes over, according to Matthew, in the same sermon which He spoke on the Mount, Blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed the meek, blessed they that mourn, blessed they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness, blessed the merciful, blessed the pure in heart, blessed the peacemakers. (Matthew 5:3-9) Of which seven sentences, it may be observed how all that long sermon was spoken. For the eighth where it is said, Blessed are they which suffer persecution for righteousness' sake, (Matthew 5:10) denotes the fire itself, whereby the silver is proved seven times. And at the termination of this sermon it is said, For He taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes. (Matthew 7:29) Which refers to that which is said in this Psalm, I deal confidently in Him.

You, O Lord, shall preserve us, and keep us from this generation to eternity: here as needy and poor, there as wealthy and rich.

The irony of saying the poor are preserved as wealthy is itself a rich irony, showing one awkwardnesses of the "persons" interpretation. By no means probative, yet indicative of the difficulties. Augustine apparently smooths it a bit by "to eternity" - implying preserved unto salvation, one of a number of interpretations that are given when Psalm 12:7b is applied to persons.

This above is also given to the thread for the purpose of showing our first known exegesis on Psalm 12. Well, when we have the Midrash on Psalms text we will have a similar early text (with a less exact date). The first section about silver tried and words is quite interesting.


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:24 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

Contact Us AV1611.Com