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  #31  
Old 06-21-2009, 04:10 PM
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I realize this is an older post, but, I was looking for discussions on Calvinism vs. other doctrines.

Please define, right dividers, and arminians. Please give contrasting definitions.

Hi Brother...

We tend to consider Arminians as those who hold to a view of conditional security, although in other ways are much like the Calvinists.

Arminians tend to be Amillennial in doctrine, or post-millennial. They tend to deny the eternal security of the believer through Jesus Christ.

Some arminians are premillennial in doctrine, but rarely in practice. For example, the Charasmatic Assemblies of God are premillennial in end times doctrine, but in practice, they are jewish, with their signs and wonders, and do not rightly divide signs and wonders into the proper dispensations of God.

Most arminians believe in Conditional security because they fail to rightly divide the word of truth. They will look at Matthew 24 and see "Endure to the end to be saved", and ignore the context of the verse, and the context of the whole chapter which is the "end of the world". If anyone had to endure to "the end" as defined in Matt 24, noone would be saved yet, because "the end" has not yet come.

A Biblicist, right divider, bible believer, whatever you want to call me, or us, is not arminian. 99% of us will have never read anything by Jacob Arminius, or John Wesley. We don't believe a believer can be lost, even if they fall away for a time. We believe in the free will of man given to man by the Sovereign God, and that man's free will does not hinder the Sovereignty of God. Man's free will can be influenced by God, directed by God, drawn by God, but that man can also reject God's grace.

Most of us rightly divide the word of truth and recognise a distinction between God dealing with Israel and God dealing with the church. This distances us from Arminius and Wesley a great deal, as their views were still highly calvinist, in terms of Christian living.

According to Calvinists, the christian needs to live their life under the law, not as a way of salvation, but as a pattern of life. Failure to do this proves that one was never saved

According to Arminians, the christian needs to live their life under the law, not as a way of salvation, but as a pattern of life. Failure to do this results in a loss of salvation.

According to Dispensationalists/Right dividers, the Christians need not live their life under the law, but recognises that the law is good and holy, and shows us our state, but that we are not under law but under grace. The Christian's motto is "I am dead, nevertheless I live, yet Not I, but Christ, and the life I now live, I live by the FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD" He need not keep the law, because the law has been kept. His pattern of life is not law, but the Lord Jesus Christ. Death to self, life through Christ.

That line in bold always gets me accused of preaching "license". But consider this.

Not trying to keep the law is a whole lot different from trying to break it.

An illustration I used in a sermon recently was something like this

When you go to the supermarket to buy groceries, you aren't trying to break the law. But you aren't trying to keep it either. You aren't constantly warning yourself every step of the way not to put the groceries in your pocket, not to steal. You just don't. Because it is a way of life. You don't have to try and keep the law. You probably never even think of it the whole time you are grocery shopping. When you get to the checkout, you do what everyone else does, and you pay for your groceries. You don't get to the car and say "phew, that was tough, I am so glad I didn't steal anything, I was so tempted, but I overcame". You didn't even think of it. If you had been trying to keep the law the whole time you were in the grocery shop, it's because you aren't just resting, and doing what comes NATURALLY. You are still fighting.

It's the same with a Christian. A Christian who is struggling to keep the law is fighting with the old nature. He needs to just die, and let the new nature do what it does NATURALLY - live unto God. Jesus Christ is the new nature, and he never sins, so why would he start sinning in you?
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Old 06-22-2009, 09:16 AM
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A Christian who is struggling to keep the law is fighting with the old nature.
You don't have any struggles with temptations any more?



He needs to just die, and let the new nature do what it does NATURALLY - live unto God. Jesus Christ is the new nature, and he never sins, so why would he start sinning in you?
I agree, Jesus will never cause anyone to sin, but, the flesh is still here. We still feel pain, anxiety, hunger, sadness, anger,merriment, fatigue, fear, etc,
and with those normal bodily functions, our thoughts MIGHT, (and do, at least in my life) cause us to sin against God. OF course, God is the only One we sin against, anyways, but, are you saying a dispensationalist is so crucified to Christ, that he never sins?
It would be nice to never give in to temptation to sin, as Jesus says, He will always, always provide a way to bear the sin, and escape sinning. Is that what a dispensationalist life is?

I must not be understanding you completely. You can probably tell, too.
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Old 06-22-2009, 09:21 AM
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"I am dead, nevertheless I live, yet Not I, but Christ, and the life I now live, I live by the FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD" He need not keep the law, because the law has been kept. His pattern of life is not law, but the Lord Jesus Christ. Death to self, life through Christ.

I live by faith of the son of God..my faith is from Jesus, right? That's what this means?
What do you mean, exactly, by keeping the law? The 600+ rules that the lost Jewish people try to keep?
Or, the Ten Commandments?

I understand "pattern of life". That's what you do, day after day, how you react, where you spend your time, and money, what you do, normally.

Have you completely died to self? How do you know that?
If you completely die to self, does that mean you never worry, or get unrighteously angry, you never slip up, and sin?
  #34  
Old 06-22-2009, 09:33 AM
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We tend to consider Arminians as those who hold to a view of conditional security, although in other ways are much like the Calvinists.

I have questions about that:
what does Jesus mean, in these verses?
12: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13: Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

He's talking to the brethren, here:
6: But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7: Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8: Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10: Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11: So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14: For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

and, these: 18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
  #35  
Old 06-22-2009, 09:40 AM
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And, if you will be so kind as to forgive me for asking so many questions, but, since you're a preacher, I think you have answers for my many questions:

These verses, have been in my mind for years, and I've wondered about them:

1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3: And this will we do, if God permit.
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9: But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10: For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11: And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

What does perfection mean, here? and, laying on of hands?
I've known entire churches that base their worship on laying on of hands to do everything, from casting out demons, to giving someone the ability to speak in tongues.
The other verses sound to ME, like you CAN lose your salvation.
I understand that God is all powerful, and that we can't earn our way to Heaven, I UNDERSTAND that, and agree with it.
I also know that I know, that men and women, have choices to make, and responsibility for their choices, and sometimes, SOMEtimes, there is
a penalty for a bad choice, right here on earth, but, sometimes, if a person falls away,and rejects Christ, their penalty is eternal torments in flames and agony.

Last edited by biblereader; 06-22-2009 at 09:52 AM. Reason: add an "s"
  #36  
Old 06-22-2009, 09:45 AM
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My goodness, your long reply has triggered many questions in me, and I hope and pray you will have patience with me, and help me to understand these verses, too:

9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Those who take the mark of the beast, will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, AND in the presence of the Lamb! Someone in a Baptist church said Jesus would never be near anyone after they go to the lake of fire, and here, it says, plainly, the LAMB(Jesus) WILL be watching them in agony,forever.
Also, what is the mark? I know it's either in your right hand or forehead, and I understand it to be an ETCHING into and/or under the skin, a permanent mark. What do you know about it?
Verse 12: Why do the saints need patience, if we are dead to sin, and why do the saints need to keep the commandments of GOD?
We are not under the law, so why keep them? But, the bible says these saints will!!

Thank you for bearing with me, I have so many things I want to know.
  #37  
Old 06-22-2009, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biblereader View Post
A Christian who is struggling to keep the law is fighting with the old nature.
You don't have any struggles with temptations any more?
Of course I do. Because I still struggle with the old nature. Jesus said take up the cross DAILY. But I never said temptations. I said struggling to keep the law.

Quote:
He needs to just die, and let the new nature do what it does NATURALLY - live unto God. Jesus Christ is the new nature, and he never sins, so why would he start sinning in you?
I agree, Jesus will never cause anyone to sin, but, the flesh is still here. We still feel pain, anxiety, hunger, sadness, anger,merriment, fatigue, fear, etc,
and with those normal bodily functions, our thoughts MIGHT, (and do, at least in my life) cause us to sin against God. OF course, God is the only One we sin against, anyways, but, are you saying a dispensationalist is so crucified to Christ, that he never sins?
It would be nice to never give in to temptation to sin, as Jesus says, He will always, always provide a way to bear the sin, and escape sinning. Is that what a dispensationalist life is?

I must not be understanding you completely. You can probably tell, too.
You are not understanding me completely. Romans 6 tells us how to deal with sin in our lives. We are not to fight sin with carnal weapons, like the flesh, or even attempt to keep the law to subdue our flesh. We simply identify with our Saviour on the cross. Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ. Romans 8 goes on to tell us the consequences of living after the flesh, and the blessings of being in the spirit.

A Christian does not have to sin. Sinning in a Christians life is a failure to identify himself as DEAD to sin.

This has nothing to do with dispensationalism. It's the Bible way, but most reformed and arminians ignore it, because they run to verses like Jeremiah 33:31 and Ezekial 36:27 to support their claims that God enables the christian to keep the law, when there isn't a christian 100 chapters either side of those verses. A Christian does not need to keep the law. He doesn't need to try. He just needs to daily reckon himself dead to sin, and see that his life was bore away on the cross of calvary in Christ, and that his life is not his own anymore, but Christ's life (Col 3:4 - when Christ, who IS OUR LIFE...)

I have never said and will never say that a Christian can attain sinless perfection. But a Christian does not need to sin. But he will, because he is in the flesh, and there will be times when instead of relying on Christ, he will rely on self.

There are two books I recommend on this subject.

Watchman Nee's "Sit, Walk, Stand"
&
Miles J. Stanford's "The Green Letters"

The latter you can read here http://withchrist.org/MJS/glchapters.htm
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by biblereader View Post
"I am dead, nevertheless I live, yet Not I, but Christ, and the life I now live, I live by the FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD" He need not keep the law, because the law has been kept. His pattern of life is not law, but the Lord Jesus Christ. Death to self, life through Christ.

I live by faith of the son of God..my faith is from Jesus, right? That's what this means?
What do you mean, exactly, by keeping the law? The 600+ rules that the lost Jewish people try to keep?
Or, the Ten Commandments?

I understand "pattern of life". That's what you do, day after day, how you react, where you spend your time, and money, what you do, normally.

Have you completely died to self? How do you know that?
If you completely die to self, does that mean you never worry, or get unrighteously angry, you never slip up, and sin?
I haven't completely died to self. It's a DAILY thing, not a one off. Some days I wake up struggling, others I wake up peaceful. And I won't have sinlessness until I recieve a new body, and this mortal shall put in immortality, and DEATH is swallowed up in victory.

But these are the kinds of questions that unbelievers ask... I'm not claiming you are... but if Jesus Christ said "take up the cross" and Paul says "reckon ye yourselves dead to sin", then there is no argument on what to do.

Quote:
I live by faith of the son of God..my faith is from Jesus, right? That's what this means?
Yes, that's what it means. Our faith is imperfect. Jesus faith is perfect. His faith inside us is what allows us to overcome temptations. His mind is perfect, and does not sin or think sinful thoughts, and Paul says "we have the mind of Christ". We only need to appropriate this fact to ourselves and believe it. Sanctification does not come from strong work. It comes from being weaker and weaker and weaker until we cannot get any weaker and we see God as all in all.

Quote:
What do you mean, exactly, by keeping the law? The 600+ rules that the lost Jewish people try to keep?
Or, the Ten Commandments?
By the law, I usually mean 10 commandments. The Christian does not need to try to keep them. But like I said, not trying to keep them is different from trying to break them. Christ's life in the christian has fulfilled the righteousness of the law, not only the 10 commandments, but the entire law. It is written, cursed is the man that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, but Christ was made a curse for us, as it is written, cursed is every man that hangeth upon a tree (that was probably not the correct verses, but it was just quick from memory. It's in Galatians 2 & 3).

Quote:
If you completely die to self, does that mean you never worry, or get unrighteously angry, you never slip up, and sin?
This is one of those theoretical questions. You are assuming that once it happens, it never need be maintained, and the christian will be perfect forevermore. However, the answer is yes, on the condition that one is completely surrendered to Jesus Christ 100% of the time in all things in every place, and sees himself as nothing, dead, but alive unto God always. Since the latter condition is rarely met, the former is also rarely met. But Christians do go for times without sinning.

The real question is, what is the right way to deal with sin?

1) Buckle down, belt up, and hold on tight as you try to keep the law, overcome temptation in the flesh, and obey the ministration of sin and death (LAW), in order to subdue the flesh

2) Identify with Christ on the cross, reckon yourself dead to law, and believe it. Then see yourself alive unto God through Jesus Christ, not under law, but under grace (GRACE).

The former is a law works based sanctification while the latter is God's grace based.

But if righteousness cannot come by the law, why do so many Christians think sanctification can?

Grace to begin with, Grace to continue with.

God bless
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:02 PM
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About your other three questions, one thing that should be noted is that one of the verses came from Matthew, two of them from Hebrews, one from Peter and the other from Revelation.

Matthew is a Jewish book written to Jewish people about a Jewish king and a Jewish Kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 5-7 makes up the constitution of the Kingdom of Heaven, and is not any plan of salvation.

Hebrews is a Jewish book written to Jewish people about a Jewish Saviour that is better than all of the Jewish laws. It is addressed specifically to Jewish people scattered abroad. This book is one of the earliest books written, and the dispersion of 70AD had not yet happened. The last time the Jews were scattered abroad was during the captivity of Babylon. The next time Babylon shows up and the Jews are scattered (they are now, so the time is ripe) abroad will be during the tribulation.

Hebrews is a Jewish book warning Jews not to take part in the Anti-Christ's religion of animal sacrifices, temple work etc. Jesus blood is a better sacrifice than anything that came before.

Peter is a Jewish book, like the above. But, have you ever heard a Christian being called a dog? No... Christians are sheep. Dogs are unsaved people. In this case, the person was a faker. He left it all because he didn't really believe. He didn't lose his salvation in that case, he never had it.

Revelation is a prophetic book. 90% of it has not yet happened. Forming a doctrine for the church age from Revelation is like trying to toast your bread on dry ice.

Having said all that, and rightly divided the word of truth, every scripture has three applications. There is a fourth as well, but not every scripture is prophetic.

1) Doctrinal
2) Historical
3) Devotional
4) Prophetic

There are many historical and devotional aspects of Hebrews, Matthew, James, Peter, Revelation, and many prophetic as well. There are many doctrinal aspects too.. but some doctrines don't apply to us in this church age today. They are for another dispensation.
  #40  
Old 06-22-2009, 05:25 PM
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One writer puts it this way;
“Never does Paul challenge us to "die to self." We are never told to seek crucifixion or to crucify ourselves. We are crucified with Christ, a present reality, not an inducement to apprehend. Crucifixion with Christ is not the goal, but the very historical event on which we originally entered a relationship with Christ.”
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Colossians 3
1. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


Romans 6
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
When a person gets saved they are baptized into Christ which includes being baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection. We are now “in Christ” and He lives in us.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Being in Christ we are new creatures.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
In Christ we are dead to and freed from sin.
Romans 6:7-8 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
You don’t die to sin or crucify yourself. It is an accomplished fact, not something you do.
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We are to know what God says and believe it. The Christian life is a life of faith.
Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

2 Corinthians 5: 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight
Being dead to sin is not sinless perfection. We still live in bodies of flesh and are capable of sinning, but based on our position in Christ (crucified, buried, and risen with Him) and His indwelling us by His Holy Spirit, sin is no longer our master.
Romans 6
6. ......that henceforth we should not serve sin

12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

In spite of being well past their child bearing years, God told Abraham that he and Sarah would have a child. God told Abraham a great nation would come from him, promised him a tract of land and told him in him all of the nations would be blessed. What was Abraham’s response? He believed it. It had nothing to do with whether he felt like these were so or if could figure it out. God said it and Abraham believed it. Abraham might be the father of the Jews, but he his the father of faith to us.

Galatian 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
God says you are dead to sin. Do you believe what God said? He didn’t ask you if you felt like you were dead to sin. He said you are now, present tense, dead to sin. I’ve read behind Miles Stanford and have learned from him, but he will correct the KJV in his “Green Letters” series

Being dead to sin is the basis for a walk over the power of sin. Having said that we still live in bodies of flesh :
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Now if you were a drunkard before you got saved don’t go to the bars exposing yourself to alcohol. If you have problems with lust, you might not want to hang out at the beach and you’d better be careful what those eyes look at. Being dead to sin is an accomplished fact, but there is still a growing process we must go through.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 

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