[Brother Tim]

Giants existed before the union of "sons of God" and "daughters of men". The verse cannot be more simple. "and also after that"

[CKG]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Giants existed before the union of "sons of God" and "daughters of men". The verse cannot be more simple. "and also after that"

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. (Genesis 6:4)

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Giants existed before the union of "sons of God" and "daughters of men". The verse cannot be more simple. "and also after that"

It's not that simple, BT. I have read it three different ways.

6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

1)The way you just read it (and there is no evidence anywhere else in scripture that would support your reading, and the structure of the sentence doesn't support your reading, either)

2) the common reading that it means also after those days (described in Gen 1-2) there were giants after that. As for this second more common reading, we don't need this verse to tell us that the nephilim continued after this because other scriptures relating to the Jews driving out the inhabitants of the promised land make it clear enough. And I think you are right that this verse isn't saying what is usually attributed to it.

3)a third (and I think correct) reading is that in the sentence segment "and also after that" the word "that" refers back to the preceding part of the sentence as well as to the next section directly after the comma "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them". The word "after" refers to "the same became the mighty men of old, men of renown".

What is 'that" referring to? It's referring to the account of the sons of God coming in to the daughters of men, and they bare children to them.

What is the "after that" referring to? It's referring to these "same" who became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

[CKG]

No big deal, but I think this thread belongs under Bible studies and not doctrine.

[Brother Tim]

I agree that "Studies" is a better spot, but this is an old thread resurrected. Perhaps Brandon can transfer it, if needed. There is a doctrinal aspect to it, because if one believes that angels have the power to propagate, and teaches so, that is doctrine, unbiblical though it is, IMO.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

bumped to top - topic resurfaces

Is it OK to copy my posts re: sons of God vis a vis nephilim that I put under the flying Scroll thread? I wonder if brother Brandon could copy appropriate posts to son's of God thread? But these issues all overlap. Maybe we need a new thread. Maybe something like "Fallen Angels/demons/aliens/ufo phenomenon/strong delusion". Lol.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by browilder61

I believe that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6:1-4 are fallen angels, as in the context of Job 1:6 ; 38:7, and not "Sethites". Why do some teach the sons of God in Gen.6 are Sethites, and the "daughters of men" are Cainites - thanks

Brother, I'm in a hurry here at the moment but will expand on my answer shortly. But the popular notion that angels fell and made wives of humans and had children that were giants is untenable as it is found in Jewish fables, and also that these giants would have no sin nature because the sin nature in mankind is passed on through the male, not the woman. Jesus Christ was sinless and had to be, thus in order for that to happen He would have had to have had no human father but God. He had God's blood, all humans have their father's blood and their mother's flesh, the blood systems in a baby are separate from the one of their mother. The CSriptures say these giants were "men of renown" and in order for them to be men they would have to have human fathers in order that the sin nature be passed on.

Grace and peace

Tony

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

The CSriptures say these giants were "men of renown" and in order for them to be men they would have to have human fathers in order that the sin nature be passed on.

Grace and peace

Tony

In the Bible ANGELS are CALLED MEN (Gen 18:1-2, 19:1-11), so the fact they were called "men" is really moot and has no bearing on what they were. The strange "nature" of these creatures was unusual, and probably one reason why the Lord was determined to remove every last one of them from the earth, not to mention for the trouble they likely caused.

Nor can it be claimed that they were not offspring of angels because they LOOKED LIKE MEN, because we know that angels can easily assume a human-like form, and that their sex is always masculine (not "SEXLESS"). The writer to the Hebrews mentions that angels can be entertained without man’s knowing it (Hebrews 13:2). Angels must be convincingly like men; the homosexuals of Sodom were very capable of judging sexuality, and they were attracted by the ‘male’ angels who came to destroy the city (Genesis 19:1, especially verse 5).

So we can see that angels are CALLED MEN, and they APPEAR AS MEN in the Bible.

Whatever "nature" they had or did not have, the Bible does define the term ‘the sons of God’ for us.

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan also came among them (Job 1:6).

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came among them to present himself before the Lord (Job 2:1).

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7, cf. Psalm 89:6; Daniel 3:25).

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

In the Bible ANGELS are CALLED MEN (Gen 18:1-2, 19:1-11), so the fact they were called "men" is really moot and has no bearing on what they were. The strange "nature" of these creatures was unusual, and probably one reason why the Lord was determined to remove every last one of them from the earth, not to mention for the trouble they likely caused.

Nor can it be claimed that they were not offspring of angels because they LOOKED LIKE MEN, because we know that angels can easily assume a human-like form, and that their sex is always masculine (not "SEXLESS"). The writer to the Hebrews mentions that angels can be entertained without man’s knowing it (Hebrews 13:2). Angels must be convincingly like men; the homosexuals of Sodom were very capable of judging sexuality, and they were attracted by the ‘male’ angels who came to destroy the city (Genesis 19:1, especially verse 5).

So we can see that angels are CALLED MEN, and they APPEAR AS MEN in the Bible.

Whatever "nature" they had or did not have, the Bible does define the term ‘the sons of God’ for us.

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan also came among them (Job 1:6).

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came among them to present himself before the Lord (Job 2:1).

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7, cf. Psalm 89:6; Daniel 3:25).

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

An old Jewish fable brother. Another found among the Jews is the "Lilith" fable, Adma's demon wife picked up in the Captivity in Babylon, and the fable Satan had sexual relations with Eve and produced Cain. The sin-nature of humanity is passed through the male seed rather than the woman, as evidenced by Christ's sinless nature.

II Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In order that these "...men..." be born of women would mean that with Adam out of the picture as "father", then they would have to have no sin nature.

Gen. 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

These men of renown are not named, it's my position these men were Zeus, Apollo, Mars, the "gods" of many ancient civilizations who were actually men worshipped in later years as gods. They were mighty, renowned, and I don;t see the Scriptures speaking of them necessarily in a negative light or pointed out, the whole earth was corrupt.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Like the "gap" theory, the whole contention, debate, and discussion of this is not one I see as profitable, at least for me.

II Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Grace and peace brother Parrish.

Tony

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

An old Jewish fable brother.

First of all brother, if you're going to claim you saw UFO's, you might want to reconsider the whole "fable" thing a little. Second, if you're going to pin up Bible verses, make sure they are in context and applicable. NONE OF THOSE verses are about angels or giants or anything related to the biblical teaching on the Nephilim, which is held by men who are stronger in the scriptures than both of us. I agree it's not a huge issue, but it should not be dismissed as a "fable" because that seems like an ignorant reaction and you are not ignorant.

Now SINCE YOU MENTIONED JEWS...

Here is an interesting article on the "Sons of God," also draws a distinction between the Nephilim and Giborem... I'm sure of there was a "Jewish fable" here he would have smelled it out long before some of us closed our eyes and refused to see the truth on the issue...

Sons Of God... Sethites Or Fallen Angels?
"The following article is only a portion of a Biblical study on Demonology: The Doctrine of Fallen Angels- Dr. A.G. Fruchtenbaum. Dr. Fruchtenbaum is a Messianic Jewish believer and founder of http://www.ariel.org in San Antonio Texas. He comes from a family line of Levite Priest (father and grandfather) and has knowledge of scripture that is just uncanny, nonetheless having become a believer in Christ at a young age, his father threw him out of the house for converting from Judaism to Christianity at the age of 17 or 18..."
http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/fo...er&f=23&t=1327

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Gen. 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

These men of renown are not named, it's my position these men were Zeus, Apollo, Mars, the "gods" of many ancient civilizations who were actually men worshipped in later years as gods.

Well I think we can agree that is possible, at least in theory.
But it's only theory, and so I don't see a right or wrong here... so back to the "issue"...

Tony, there are THEORIES, SPECULATION, and FABLES, but when the dust settles, the King James Bible CLEARLY DEFINES the term ‘the SONS OF GOD’ for us. You're always wanting to examine the SCRIPTURE, you of all people should know this...

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan also came among them (Job 1:6).

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came among them to present himself before the Lord (Job 2:1).

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7, cf. Psalm 89:6; Daniel 3:25).

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

They were mighty, renowned, and I don;t see the Scriptures speaking of them necessarily in a negative light or pointed out, the whole earth was corrupt.

Brother, I am convinced that if you "study this out" with an open mind you will see that the Giants, Nephilim, along with the related "ims" including the Zamzummims, Rephaim, Emims, Anakims, Horims, etc. etc, (and their descendants) are woven fairly well through the early portions of the Bible, and may very well have been a much larger part of the violence, destruction and DNA problems that REQUIRED the near TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the ENTIRE POPULATION OF MANKIND and ANIMALS in Genesis, and led to MORE TOTAL EXTERMINATIONS of certain populations in other points in history after the flood.

"And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence THROUGH THEM; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth." Gen 6:13

Note, the context of the passage above is the Nephilim. The Biblical picture is not one of a "few" or a "handful" of these "rare" creatures, but ENTIRE POPULATIONS of these giants, can you say "LAND OF THE GIANTS?"...

And when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon, distress them not, nor meddle with them: for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon any possession; because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession. (That also was accounted A LAND OF GIANTS: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;
A PEOPLE GREAT, AND MANY, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them before them..." Deu 2:19-22

"But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against THE PEOPLE; for they are stronger than we. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, THE LAND, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and ALL THE PEOPLE WE SAW IN IT are men of a great stature. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight." Numbers 13:32-33