Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

 
 
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  #21  
Old 10-03-2008, 01:20 PM
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Default Salvation = faith + works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simons View Post
Well I guess James did not know what he was talking about.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

dang, that pesty little book of James
James was discussing that with a true faith, action follows.

In Hebrews,That is the definition of faith.
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  #22  
Old 10-03-2008, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Doxa - "My answer"

Aloha Doxa,

Your Quote:
Quote:
"Some years ago I was in a major discussion on line about our knowledge of doctrine and how important it was to know, etc., but something really hit me with the in depth discussion, that even our knowledge of doctrine will not save us."
1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

"Doctrine" is extremely important. By believing the "right doctrine" a person is saved! Believing in the "wrong doctrine" will damn a person to Hell!

No one person knows all there is to know about the Scriptures. And there certainly are differences of "opinion", and differing convictions and beliefs amongst Christians - even in Apostolic times (Peter & Paul - Barnabas & Paul). BUT, the fact that we Christians may disagree with each other doesn't negate the necessity to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [2 Timothy 2:15]; nor does it give us an "excuse" to assume that because of all the differing opinions and beliefs held by Christians that "doctrine" is not all that important.

The truth is, it's NOT: what we each believe in our heart that really matters - It's whether we have believed THE TRUTH (in our hearts) that really matters, and it is THE TRUTH that will determine where we will spend eternity!

Your statement: "something really hit me with the in depth discussion, that even our knowledge of doctrine will not save us." illustrates the danger of going by "feelings" rather than searching the Scriptures to see whatever "hit" you was true. In light of the Scriptures I quoted above - whatever "hit" you wasn't the TRUTH!

In addition, as I have read through your Posts I detect a tendency on your part to lean on your own understanding and personal experiences, rather than the Scriptures. The following statement made by you illustrates my point:
Quote:
"It is like looking at a physical Christian history book, no matter which one one chooses, one pretty much knows how Christianity started, but the end of the book is a free for all, so many thousands upon thousands of denominations, each one having different ideals, the pendulum is wide from one extreme to the other on just about every Christian doctrine. And most new churches probably started by un-reconciliation, arguments, and splits.
So does our knowledge, works, save us? I think we are in trouble, then, actually.
"
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The purpose of studying the Scriptures is to "see" whether the "thousands of denominations" and the many "differing ideals" are TRUE or NOT. We are to study the word of God so that we will not be ashamed. We study the Bible and try to "rightly divide the word of truth" because we are seeking God's "approval": [2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.].

I care not what men may say - I want to know what God says. ["What saith the Scripture?"]. I am not interested in what I may personally "think" (or "feel") about a matter; or an issue; or a doctrine - I want to know what God says about a matter, an issue, or a doctrine. I do not rely on "personal experiences" in my life to determine the TRUTH of a matter or a doctrine - I go to the Scriptures to see what God has to say and seek out the Holy Spirit's guidance for discernment, understanding, and wisdom.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


I do not trust other men to determine the TRUTH for me. To be honest - I don't trust my personal "thoughts", "feelings", or "experiences" when it comes to determining the TRUTH. [Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.] But there are some doctrines that are are of such importance that I will not fellowship with another "Christian" if they do not believe and accept them. {See: AV1611 Forums > Doctrine > "Why isn't the Second day of Creation said to be good?" > Page #4 > My Post #32 for the list}

Doctrine is of the utmost importance. And just because we Christians may differ on "The Gap"; "The Kingdoms"; "The Rapture"; "The timing and purpose of the Tribulation"; or "how to baptize (forward or backwards!)"; or "how to celebrate the Lord's Supper (one cup or individual glasses!)"; or "whether a woman should wear a hat in church or not"; etc.; etc.; doesn't mean that the major doctrines {listed by me on Post #32}, that are of extreme importance, can be ignored or compromised. We are commanded to "contend for the faith", in order to "contend" we have to first know what "the faith" (doctrine) is.

Your statement:
Quote:
"But God looks at the heart. We could even say that there are some places in the Bible that state, who finds salvation, and that is, those who fear HIM.
Which means that they believe in God...and reverence Him.
"
It's true that: "God looks at the heart", but the road to Hell is paved with: "good motives" and "good intentions". Contrary to what you have said - those who "fear" God are NOT necessarily saved! [James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.] There are many people in the world that may fear God, but if they haven't believed the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ they are as lost as if they never "feared".

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I know some mighty fine Catholics who "fear" God, but who have embraced FALSE DOCTRINE, and who are trusting in the "church" (or Mary, or the Pope, or some Saints, etc.) to save them. They are sincere in their beliefs, BUT if they don't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on Calvary, and if they don't RECEIVE Him as their personal SAVIOUR - they are going to end up in Hell whether they "fear" God or not!

I don't know of a "nice" way to say that you are mistaken, so I'll speak plainly - Your Posts indicate that you are not grounded in the Scriptures. You need to study the King James Bible and seek out the Holy Spirit's guidance. If you are married you should be receiving instruction from your husband; if you are not married you should seek out a King James Bible believing church (if you can find one) and receive some instruction from a Bible believing man, called of God and, able to teach the Holy Scriptures.

God is not the author of the confusion that is reigning in the churches today - Satan is! And the major reason for the anarchy and confusion is the perverse influence of Humanism that is so prevalent in the world today. Every man (and woman) is doing "that which was right in his own eyes" and are choosing to ignore God's TRUTH:

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is TRUTH.

The Bible (The Holy Scriptures) is to be our FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice. What we (or others) "think", "feel", or "experience", cannot SUBSTITUTE for the TRUTH of God's words. "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." [Matthew 4:4]. I personally, am not interested in whatever "scraps" or "crumbs" that I, or others, may dig up from whatever source there may be. I want to know: "What saith the Scripture?"
  #23  
Old 10-03-2008, 06:27 PM
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Good reply, Brother George.

If one doesn't have a relationship with Christ, it doesn't matter how one 'feels' or what one 'experiences'. Hell is full of people, I'm sure, who 'thought' they were doing the right thing, who were convinced that if they 'believed' in Jesus, they would go to Heaven.
"...Lord, Lord..."

One comment, as a 'weaker vessel':
I have noticed, and experienced that many Christian husbands not only do not lead, but are often much less mature than their wives. What would you suggest for those women, in absence of someone able to teach them?

Personally, I've tried to learn on my own, but I would love it if my husband were able to teach me. In the meanwhile, my King James Bible and the Holy Spirit teach me.
(1 John 2:27)
  #24  
Old 10-03-2008, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Here Am I View Post
If one doesn't have a relationship with Christ, it doesn't matter how one 'feels' or what one 'experiences'. Hell is full of people, I'm sure, who 'thought' they were doing the right thing, who were convinced that if they 'believed' in Jesus, they would go to Heaven."...Lord, Lord..."
Brother Here Am I, you are not suggesting those who believe in Jesus go to hell are you?

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" (Matthew 7:22).

They prophesied, cast out devils, and did many wonderful works in His name...but they did not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  #25  
Old 10-03-2008, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Brother Here Am I, you are not suggesting those who believe in Jesus go to hell are you?
No. Many who believe in Jesus as the Son of God, but do not have that relationship with Him, who have not accepted His work, and been born again, they're the ones headed for Hell.

That's what I meant. Sorry if I was not clear.

And fwiw, I'm a 'sister', hence my reference to myself as a 'weaker vessel'...
  #26  
Old 10-03-2008, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Here Am I View Post
No...those who have not accepted His work, and been born again, they're the ones headed for Hell. That's what I meant. Sorry if I was not clear.
Thanks for clarifying.
  #27  
Old 10-03-2008, 08:03 PM
Scott Simons
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
This is another case where proper "interpretation" of Scripture results in proper "application" of Scripture.

On the one hand, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

And on the other hand, "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20). James is simply teaching that when a person has faith in Christ, it results in genuine works. His letter is addressing the practical aspects of living the daily Christian life, not how to be saved from the penalty of sin.

We conclude that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, (His death for our sins, burial, and resurrection), is by grace through faith and results in a life of good works.

"But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty" (Matthew 13:23).

In either case; eternal salvation and good works, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).
"faith in the Lord Jesus Christ", can you show me that phase in the King James Bible?

If you can't can you show me something close to that phase?
  #28  
Old 10-03-2008, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simons View Post
"faith in the Lord Jesus Christ", can you show me that phase in the King James Bible?

If you can't can you show me something close to that phase?
Answer my question and I shall answer yours. What does the word faith mean?
  #29  
Old 10-04-2008, 12:06 AM
Doxa
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Default George, George, George

If you digest my entire message and all the things elsewhere that I have written, you will perhaps realize what I meant when I said that.
When I speak of doctrine, off the top of my head (and it is late here) I'll give an example. What about the verse (1 Cor 14:34) where it says about women being silent in the church. For centuries, men have dissected it to interpret that verse exactly how they see fit. If one takes it literally, women really have no place in church, because after all women and men are to pray without ceasing. Let alone sing praises to God and hymns and psalms to one another in communication. Thereby, if one takes that verse literally, one cannot participate in church if they are a woman. My point, is there are some things we cannot understand or interpret properly because the exact intent or meaning has been lost. Was even Paul saying that or addressing a question. Tons of commentaries out there with various opinions. We can analyze it, and know for example that in those verses, these women are to ask their husbands at home. First problem is that not all women have a husband. And then we discover that in the Greek, the word for women and wives is the same. So, are we talking about women who are married chattering with their husbands in church?
It would be the same as in 1 Timothy where it talks about women not teaching. Some churches teach it is not okay for women to preach but it is okay for them to teach children in Sunday School and such things. A real "interpretation" of that Scripture in how they see fit. Well, we would completely be at a loss until we discover that there are about eight different Greek words for teach. Possibly, the one used there was the kind of teach that meant, teach someone a thing or too, like lording it over someone.
But nonetheless, my point is to show that we really have a lot of questions pertaining to real Truth, and only the Lord reveals if He chooses to do so.

Another point, is when I was a kid I believed in God; I got saved in a Baptist church as a teenager, but I did not know that Jesus died for me until I was in my twenties. Did my lack of knowledge disqualify me?
No, because although I was devoid of this precious information, I simply believed in Jesus. Jesus looks at the heart.

That man on the cross next to Jesus, did not know doctrine, but he believed that Jesus was good and had faith in Him. I truly believe he is with the Lord.

As a matter of fact, in the Gospels, I see places where Jesus said to some, go thy way. After HE healed them, etc. HE actually did not tell them to wait until they got a parcel of doctrine. I would even venture to say that many did not know that HE was going to die for them. But they believed He was the Messiah...and healer. Were these people disqualified because they did not read and understand Paul's letters and follow them? No because God wrote it on their hearts. This LOVE thing. And did HE not say that is how His disciples would be recognized??

I would never say it is okay to go down easy street; I believe God expects us to use what He has given us. If He gives us much or gives us very little, like the talents, what did we do with what God gave us? That is the question.

George, you missed my point completely. Furthermore, I truly believe that churches like the Catholic church have major differences from the Baptist churches, but God certainly still meets people where they are at, and I have done a lot of investigating into their faith as well as various others, and you know what? They are getting a lot of their views from the Bible, just a completely different interpretation of it.

For example, Matthew 5:23...there are probably 2 billion or so Christians that believe that that verse is still applicable (Eucharist) (Since Catholics believe that there is no other thing that they can offer the Father, except the eternal Blood of Jesus), whereas many other Christians actually do not believe that that verse is still applicable today. You may ask how did it get like that? The pendulum swings so very wide in the opposing views from church to church, one extreme to the other. Yet, the Catholic people recite and believe the Creed often, and is that not the similar/basic views of most churches? Other Christian churches believe vastly different in doctrines, but they too have a solid rock foundation, JESUS. Are they too disqualified, because of generations of skewed ideas? And then again, who is right? Yet, God still meets them where they are at and blesses them and calls them His children and saves them because they believe in Him.

Just a thought. I could go on and on and on. But I must retire for now; I am very tired. Good night for now.
  #30  
Old 10-04-2008, 05:17 AM
Scott Simons
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Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Answer my question and I shall answer yours. What does the word faith mean?

Ok, that's fair and reasonable.

Faith is the action that revels what you believe and who you are, though it you can give prasie and glory to God.
 

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