Is water baptism for today? - Page 15

CKG · 05-14-2009, 06:55 AM

[QUOTE=tandy1650;19737] I guess my last question is this. Do you believe ONLY Paul's epistles are for Church doctrine? QUOTE]

That's a good question. I'm not sure if I would say "only" Paul's epistles are for church doctrine, but I would sure say it should be the main source for church doctrine. Whenever someone poses a question to me in which there seems to be a contradiction between something Paul said and something say in the gospels, if it is relevant to church doctrine. I say go by what Paul said. Of course I guess it would be good to define what all comes under the heading of church doctrine.

chette777 · 07:23 AM

Tandy,

Jesus did command them to preach the gospel of the kingdom. that Gospel is much different than the Gospel of Grace taught by Paul. it is the Gospel Peter taught in Acts 2. just to make that clear. Jesus said teaching them ALL thing I commanded it would include the gospel of the Kingdom.

Actually we have discussed the differences in the Gospels found in the NT in a different post but basically there are 3 different ones taught in NT. All have there place.

I feel if Jesus and Paul teach the same thing it is for the church doctrine. if others teach something and Paul agrees with it is is for church Doctrines. there may be rare instances where Paul doesn't teach something but we still hold it as a church doctrine such as Water Baptism.

But like CKG said you would have to define what is church doctrine. the OT has tons of applications with no agreed teaching of any NT person. But we need to be balanced as not to get to far over into intellectualism or the opposite emotionalism. Simple Balance is a good key to doctrine and practice.

I am not wanting to spend too much time online forum this semester as I prepare for classes. I will be making short and simple responses to any post. if it starts to progress into length I will just stop responding.

BroParish,

Thanks for pointing that out about the similar names I did in fact have them confused.

05-14-2009, 08:24 AM

[QUOTE=CKG;19766]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tandy1650

I guess my last question is this. Do you believe ONLY Paul's epistles are for Church doctrine? QUOTE]

That's a good question. I'm not sure if I would say "only" Paul's epistles are for church doctrine, but I would sure say it should be the main source for church doctrine. Whenever someone poses a question to me in which there seems to be a contradiction between something Paul said and something say in the gospels, if it is relevant to church doctrine. I say go by what Paul said. Of course I guess it would be good to define what all comes under the heading of church doctrine.

What do you believe about the book of James and the other General Epistles? Are they just as reliable as Paul's when it comes to church doctrine? Regards.

Brother Tim · 05-14-2009, 10:24 AM

In post #136, George said,

Quote:

Tony’s point based on Early Paul; Mid Paul; and Late Paul is (to me) not very strong, but on the other hand his point about “one baptism” is (to be honest) extremely difficult to deal with.

Several times the "one baptism" verse has been used to "prove" that water baptism is no longer appropriate. The broader context is:

Quote:

Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Please refer to the chapter for the full context.

What should be noticed is that this is the list of distinctives that defines the true family of believers. This is not our practices or traditions, it is our mark of identity. The "baptism" spoken of here (as has been repeatedly shown) is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is required for one to be a part of the family. Water baptism and the LORD's Supper are ordinances used as symbols for the church. They do not distinguish one's spiritual condition (meaning quickened or dead). Therefore, Ephesians 4 is not addressing water baptism by exclusion ("one baptism"), because it is dealing with conditions, not practices.

George · 05-15-2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tandy1650

Chette I will be very careful to not add or twist words. You keep saying that Jesus is talking about the “gospel of the kingdom” in Matthew 28. He clearly is not. He is referring to the same gospel Paul preached which is the good news of the death, burial and resurrection (Luke 24:46) and the commission is not to the nation of Israel but to all nations.

You object because the Lord says that "repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name..." Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. Does that mean he died in order for us to sin or because of our sins? Remission means "FORGIVENESS" not "redemption." People were FORGIVEN for their sins in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. So what's the problem? No man was saved by works in the Old Testament so why do you believe that is what Jesus is teaching?

Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should REPENT and turn to God, and DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE.

If Paul preached that would you object to a Baptist preacher following his example? Paul clearly teaches that good works will justify no man when it comes to righteousness BEFORE GOD (Romans 4).

I sincerely don't understand where you are coming from in rejecting the commission in Matthew 28 since it is a to be preached to ALL NATIONS.

I guess my last question is this. Do you believe ONLY Paul's epistles are for Church doctrine? That is about the only thing I can figure.

If I have misrepresented any of your statements please correct me.

Aloha brother Tandy,

I'm trying to be real careful here (not to be offensive), but as I said previously - "Perhaps you can clarify your position for us:"; "I asked five (5) QUESTIONS (in my Post #131) - none of which you answered directly (in your Post #133 http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=133). So I will ask them again, and I hope that you will give me a simple YES or NO "answer" to each of them {This time.}.

Quote:

1. Do you believe that “God’s Salvation has ALWAYS BEEN THE SAME since Adam’s Fall? {YES or NO?}

2. Do you believe that Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were saved the SAME "way" as we are today? {YES or NO?}

3. Do you believe that Moses, Aaron, Joshua, the Judges, David, and the Prophets were saved the SAME "way" as we are today? {YES or NO?}

4. Do you believe that Peter, James, John, and the rest of the Disciples were “saved” just exactly the SAME "way" as we are today – BEFORE the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord? {YES or NO?}

5. And do you believe that it is absolutely necessary that a person REPENT of their sins BEFORE they can be “saved” today? {YES or NO?}

Now I'm not trying to trap you or trick you; I asked those questions so that I might know WHAT you believe - I said: "Perhaps you can clarify your position for us:" and instead of directly answering the questions I posed to you, you replied with your Post #133:

Quote:

"Brother George sometimes unless one is standing on the outside and looking on he may not realize the impression he is making. I suppose you are right that my “tone” could be take the wrong way. I don't wish to be condescending. I have been humbled many times down through the years and take what you said to heart."

"I would consider one who rejects the commission given by our Lord just before his ascension to be a hyper-dispensationalist. That doesn't mean that he is a heretic or anything of that sort but I do believe it is an important doctrine given to the church. The gospel given is after the death, burial and resurrection and clearly is the one defined in 1 Corinthians 15."

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

"It is certainly not the “gospel of the kingdom” given to the nation of Israel. It is the gospel that is to be given to “all nations.” The apostle Paul simply brings to light many things that had been a mystery up to that point."

I must take exception to your statement: “God deals with men's hearts and their works prove what kind of hearts they have!” The Lord Jesus Christ said: “by their fruits ye shall know them.”

"Let me explain what I am saying."

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

"Yes. Abraham was justified by works but not before God. Clearly men before the law and under the law were justified by faith without worksrighteousness. That is my position."

At the end of your Post #133 you said: "That is my position." My problem is - I still don't know WHAT your position is, because you never answered my questions.

) - and until we know WHERE you are coming from and WHAT you believe, we have very little idea HOW to respond to you.

Brother Tim · 05-15-2009, 09:13 AM

One thing that I have noted over the years of asking and answering questions on the forums is that there is no simple answer to a simple question.

But while Tandy is getting his thoughts together, I will answer the five questions with one simple answer. "yes" (though I am not certain some in the lists were saved... lack of evidence)

Quote:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"By faith Abel..." (Hebrews 11:4)
"By faith Enoch..." (Hebrews 11:5)
"By faith Noah..." (Hebrews 11:7)
"By faith Abraham..." (Hebrews 11:8)
"By faith Isaac..." (Hebrews 11:20)
"By faith Jacob..." (Hebrews 11:21)

etc...

Quote:

Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

05-15-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George

Quote:
1. Do you believe that “God’s Salvation has ALWAYS BEEN THE SAME since Adam’s Fall? {YES or NO?}

2. Do you believe that Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were saved the SAME "way" as we are today? {YES or NO?}

3. Do you believe that Moses, Aaron, Joshua, the Judges, David, and the Prophets were saved the SAME "way" as we are today? {YES or NO?}

4. Do you believe that Peter, James, John, and the rest of the Disciples were “saved” just exactly the SAME "way" as we are today – BEFORE the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord? {YES or NO?}

5. And do you believe that it is absolutely necessary that a person REPENT of their sins BEFORE they can be “saved” today? {YES or NO?}

Until we find out WHAT you believe it is difficult to know HOW to answer you. To be honest, there are "lurkers"; "skeptics"; "sophists"; Bible "correctors"; and "hereticks" (all flavors) that come here practically every week (and some of whom are still here

) - and until we know WHERE you are coming from and WHAT you believe, we have very little idea HOW to respond to you.

[/FONT]

Brother George. I will try to answer your questions plainly. As far as "lurkers"; "skeptics"; "sophists"; Bible "correctors"; and "hereticks" are concerned I would try to answer them according to scripture whether they believe what I do or not. They would concern me not a bit.

1. Do you believe that “God’s Salvation has ALWAYS BEEN THE SAME since Adam’s Fall? {YES or NO?}

Yes. It is not by works. Paul makes that plain. God doesn't care if it makes sense to you.

2. Do you believe that Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were saved the SAME "way" as we are today? {YES or NO?}

Absolutely. Works of righteousness were as filthy rags in the Old Testament (Isaiah 64:6) The were justified before God by faith not their works. Their faith was counted for righteousness not keeping the Ceremonial Law or any other works of righteousness.

3. Do you believe that Moses, Aaron, Joshua, the Judges, David, and the Prophets were saved the SAME "way" as we are today? {YES or NO?}

See question 2.

4. Do you believe that Peter, James, John, and the rest of the Disciples were “saved” just exactly the SAME "way" as we are today – BEFORE the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord? {YES or NO?}

See question 2.

5. And do you believe that it is absolutely necessary that a person REPENT of their sins BEFORE they can be “saved” today? {YES or NO?}

Absolutely. We are granted repentance unto salvation. Only Campbellites reverse the God given order of repentance and faith. In one generation the historic and commonly accepted definition has been changed to a mere change of mind that doesn't affect a man's heart or actions.

2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

They did more than acknowledge that they'd done wrong things! True repentance (unto life) involves both confessing and mentally forsaking one's sin and sinfulness.

I will show you how Curtis Hudson and Steve Anderson have perverted the commonly accepted historical and scriptural definition. Are these men heretics?

Recognizing his guilt, there is a TURNING FROM SIN. There is a turning to God. The actual word "repentance" means a turning completely around: a change of course; a change of mind. TO THINK OF REPENTANCE THAT DOES NOT CAUSE THE SINNER TO TURN GLADLY FROM HIS SINS IS IMPOSSIBLE. I know that we have a shallow religious movement in our times that will allow men to profess faith in Christ and at the same time continue to live in the world. Such a shallow religious faith is not real. These are mere professors and have no part with God in salvation (Harold Sightler, Chastening and Repentance, 1963).

No unrepentant sinner will ever get into Heaven, unless they forsake their sin they cannot enter there. The law of God is very plain on this point: "Except a man repent."True repentance is the Holy Ghost showing sinners their sin. That's what we want. (D.L. Moody "from message on Repentance")

repentance is a turning from sin, a loathing of it; and if thou hast that, thou hast sure repentance; but not else. Repentance is also a sense of shame for having lived in it, and a longing to avoid it. It is a change of the mind with regard to sin--a turning of the man right round. That is what it is; and it is wrought in us by the grace of God. Let none therefore mistake what true repentance (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Mistaken Notions about Repentance, Metropolitan Tabernacle, London, England, April 20, 1879).

"True repentance is sorrow for sin committed against a holy God and not only sorrow for sin, but turning from sin, forsaking sin and turning to God. Sin nailed the Savior to the cross and certainly that fact alone is sufficient reason why all who have genuinely repented hate sin and forsake sinful ways" (Oliver B. Greene, Commentary of Acts of the Apostles, Acts 2:37,38, 1969).

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. - Jesus

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. - The Apostle Paul

Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. - The Apostle Paul

Hyperdispensationalism conveniently turns repentance into a work. After a man becomes a Christian he repents to have fellowship restored(1 John 1). Repentance is no more a work than believing the gospel!

George · 05-15-2009, 01:21 PM

Aloha Tandy1650,

Thank you for answering my questions.

If you would please, I respectfully have another question for you - are you a "Calvinist"?

I want to understand you correctly (and I don't want to misrepresent you) Do you believe that ALL of the Old Testament saints believed the "Gospel"? - i.e.:

Quote:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

When a child is saved, what "sins" does he have to "repent" of?

And when an adult is saved - what happens if doesn't "repent" of ALL of his sins (especially those he isn't aware of?)

I refuse to go over and over the same ground with a new member to the Forum. I hope that you will read the Links that I posted, at least you will see why I strongly disagree with you on both points.

In addition - I really don't care what "the historic and commonly accepted definition" of a doctrinal issue was/is (the Reformers had a lot of their "doctrines" WRONG - I have listed many of their "false doctrines" elsewhere) - I want to know: "What saith the Scripture?"

And again, I'm not interested in what Harold Sightler; D.L. Moody; Charles Haddon Spurgeon; Curtis Hudson or Steve Anderson have to say about this issue - I want to know: "What saith the Scripture?"

The commentators do not determine how to "rightly divide the word of truth"; the Holy Spirit does. I have had my fill of Bible "Commentators", and after 50 years I only want to know one thing - What does God have to say about an issue, i.e. "What saith the Scripture?"

05-15-2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

In post #136, George said,Several times the "one baptism" verse has been used to "prove" that water baptism is no longer appropriate. The broader context is:
Please refer to the chapter for the full context.

What should be noticed is that this is the list of distinctives that defines the true family of believers. This is not our practices or traditions, it is our mark of identity. The "baptism" spoken of here (as has been repeatedly shown) is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is required for one to be a part of the family. Water baptism and the LORD's Supper are ordinances used as symbols for the church. They do not distinguish one's spiritual condition (meaning quickened or dead). Therefore, Ephesians 4 is not addressing water baptism by exclusion ("one baptism"), because it is dealing with conditions, not practices.

Very good points brother...

From Hyper-Dispensationalism
by Brother Ruckman:

"Hypers teach two or three baptisms of the Spirit,
although the context of ONE BAPTISM is ONE SPIRIT (Eph. 4:4, 5)."

05-15-2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George

Aloha Tandy1650,

Thank you for answering my questions.

If you would please, I respectfully have another question for you - are you a "Calvinist"?

I want to understand you correctly (and I don't want to misrepresent you) Do you believe that ALL of the Old Testament saints believed the "Gospel"? - i.e.:
When a child is saved, what "sins" does he have to "repent" of?

And when an adult is saved - what happens if doesn't "repent" of ALL of his sins (especially those he isn't aware of?)

I refuse to go over and over the same ground with a new member to the Forum. I hope that you will read the Links that I posted, at least you will see why I strongly disagree with you on both points.

In addition - I really don't care what "the historic and commonly accepted definition" of a doctrinal issue was/is (the Reformers had a lot of their "doctrines" WRONG - I have listed many of their "false doctrines" elsewhere) - I want to know: "What saith the Scripture?"

And again, I'm not interested in what Harold Sightler; D.L. Moody; Charles Haddon Spurgeon; Curtis Hudson or Steve Anderson have to say about this issue - I want to know: "What saith the Scripture?"

The commentators do not determine how to "rightly divide the word of truth"; the Holy Spirit does. I have had my fill of Bible "Commentators", and after 50 years I only want to know one thing - What does God have to say about an issue, i.e. "What saith the Scripture?"

The gospel of the kingdom was the good news given to the nation of Israel. They rejected it. The Lord changed the commission after the crucifixion and that commission was given for world evangelism. I'm very tired of hearing dry cleaners dismiss our Lord's command by explaining it away with their pet dispensational systems. I felt it had to be addressed and have done so.

No child will be saved unless the Holy Spirit convicts him of the fact that he has broken God's law and that includes adults. A man that is under conviction will see himself as a sinner guilty before God and in need of salvation. There will be a desire to forsake the sin and turn to God.

I know you don't care about the men I mentioned because they would strongly rebuke you for wrongly dividing the word of God. Since coming to this forum I find that a large percentage of posters are nothing more than little followers of Dr. Ruckman. I hope that is not the case with you. As the title says, this is my last post. I really don't harbor any ill will toward you and will say as a final goodby. May God bless you.

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