[Renee]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Doxa

Do you always choose to obey God's commandment to love one another so grudgingly?

It is the love and obedience to God's word that compels the love that George has for fellow christians that rightly divide God's word. Most here do not cut and paste as you claim.

I would highly recommend as you suggested that people re-review what I said if you find it necessary

.

I have read and reread your post and find it underserving of much comment.

Also, the commandment about judging people as you do, which we are not to do (except judge righteously), do you dismiss that commandment too?

The words from your mouth judge you. He judges you righteously from the Word.

(Referring to your earlier points about my not being grounded in Scripture and the host of insults you sent my way?)

Insults were not intended, only that you learn from the word. And that scripture is at the root of his post. (If he meant to insult you, just grit your teeth and take it like a man.)

But more important, your slinging of comments and Scripture that obviously come from an angry spirit.

Doxa, George has a right to be angry, (I call it righteous anger) you as a woman are totally out of order.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

You have gone beyond expressing what you believe. You are now trying to teach. If you go to Timothy you will see that it is not in church.

I could quote tons of Scripture here right back at you, and you know it. What would that do?

Yes I am sure you could twist and wrest the scripture to say what you want.

Would you talk the way you did to me here just now as you would to your Pastor if he sat right here next to you? Of course not, you hypocrite

Wrong again Doxa, Yes he would !!!! You see George is no respecter of persons.

And we call no man on earth "Father", pastor, rabbi, or what have you.

James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I do not know your heart but I preceive that it is wicked and that little tongue of yours has sure kindled a great fire.

Be careful of the word hyprocrite for when you point that finger three are pointing back at you. If I know anything about George, it is that he is definitely not a hypocrite. What you see is what you get, and when he says something he will try to live up to it. And when he makes a promise he will try in all his power to keep it. Do not speak and attribute names to one you do not know.

Take what I have said anyway you want. For that is the way of a woman.

Renee

[stephanos]

I want to share my simple take on this. I want to first of all say that the KJB is the sole authority on all matters of faith and practice in the Christian Church. If we can't go to it to make our points, or defend ourselves then we have nothing. BUT I also want to say that when you have members of the Church who seem more often than not to lack charity and hospitality for the brethren then you will see conflict such as this. I want to make it clear that I love Christians. I get so much of the world each day that I YEARN for time with Christ's body. I'm not exagerating here. The world is just to much some times and I find peace when I can be with those who understand the struggles we Christians battle with each day. What hurts me so much is when I see more infighting among Christians than you see among the world. Why do Satan's children have more love for each other than some of God's children? Perhaps this is a aberrant way of viewing things. If I go to my grave being a Christian who only knew Christ crucified and risen, and the love of the brethren, then what could I possibly be missing? Call me what you may, this is where I stand.

Doxa, it took great courage to write this thread. I love you sister, and appreciate you and your concerns very much. Please don't feel overwhelmed in well doing. If you have concerns and cannot go before the brethren because of the fear of being ostricised then there is something fundamentally wrong within the Church. Just never forget to keep your eyes on JESUS (and His Word, the King James Bible) and everything else will be added unto you.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

[George]

Doxa,

Your latest quote:

Originally Posted by Doxa

Do you always choose to obey God's commandment to love one another so grudgingly?
I would highly recommend as you suggested that people re-review what I said if you find it necessary.
Also, the commandment about judging people as you do, which we are not to do (except judge righteously), do you dismiss that commandment too?
(Referring to your earlier points about my not being grounded in Scripture and the host of insults you sent my way?)
But more important, your slinging of comments and Scripture that obviously come from an angry spirit.
I could quote tons of Scripture here right back at you, and you know it.
What would that do?
Would you talk the way you did to me here just now as you would to your Pastor if he sat right here next to you? Of course not, you hypocrite.

Since you have arrived on this Forum we have gotten a whole lot of your "personal opinions" (whatever they are worth) and very little Scripture. [Let's see now - the following "accusations" made by you in the above Post: I love "grudgingly"; I dismiss or ignore "righteous judgment"; I "insult" {because I speak the truth?}; I have a "an angry spirit"; you "could quote tons of Scripture right back at me" {BUT, you never do!}; I wouldn't say the things that I do, if my "Pastor" were sitting next to me {Oh, but I would, and I DO, because my PASTOR is living within me all of the time - I have no man over me or any other master, other than my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ - Oh, by the way - I am an elder/pastor! } And your final judgment concerning me - I'm a "hypocrite"! There's a whole lot of "judging" going on (in a very short space) by someone who professes to "love" everyone.]

The vast majority of people on this Forum are MEN - not a bunch of "milk sops" or "effeminate wimps"! Real MEN say what they mean, and mean what they say. They don't "parse" their words in order not to "offend" other MEN.

Now, there are a hand full of women on this Forum, and while I'm sure they are just as welcome as the men, we are not going to let one or two women "set the tone" of the debate or discussion that takes place here (just because you don't like "plain talk").

If I won't allow my wife to "brow beat" me or "manipulate" me - I'm sure not going to let you or some other woman (a stranger no less) get away with telling me how I am to speak or conduct myself!

Your Post #1 > "Sword Wars" is a classic example of the difference between how men and women approach debate and how they conduct themselves. In your entire Post you moan and complain about "someone" who has hurt your "feelings" without ever being specific or identifying who it is. MEN (real MEN) don't "operate" that way.

Now you may not like it, and it may "upset" you, but "if you can't stand the heat" you can always get out of the kitchen. But, you're crying and complaining about how "unloving" I am isn't going to get you anywhere with me. I refuse to be "manipulated" by any woman. {I've raised three daughters - some of which may be older than you, and they tried every which way to "manipulate" me, without success I might add.} Right Jaebird?

If a woman comes on the Forum - she's basically in a man's world, and she will have to abide by our rules and act like a man, instead of fall back on a feminist device and play the "victim". Or make unfounded accusations about my "angry spirit" or that I am "unloving".

You don't know me - so how do you know if I am "unloving" or not? Hmmm? Why don't you ask my wife {Renee} of 47 years as to what I am truly like? Perhaps you have never met a man like me (who refuses to be "manipulated" by, and will not take "orders" from you). Perhaps our Humanist Western "culture" has persuaded you that it is perfectly OK to argue and debate with, and accuse and malign a Christian man who has been saved for 50 years; who has believed in the King James Bible as the Final Authority in all matters of faith and practice for over 40 years; who has been a serious student of the Scriptures for over 40 years; who has taught the Holy Bible in various churches for 40 years; and who has been an elder in a church for over 15 years.

Perhaps you were raised to disrespect men in that manner, but my wife and daughters have not been. Since you came on this Forum you have "lectured" us on our conduct, our speech, and our doctrine. It's one thing to take part in the debate, but it is quite another thing for a woman to "lecture" Christian men as to what they should or should not say; or how they should say it! {Basically, you are "out of order".}

I personally will not take it - NO not for a minute! If you want to take part in debate - fine, but don't tell me I have an "angry spirit" or I don't know how to "love" just because I don't measure up to your personal "opinion" as to how I should conduct myself! I withheld my comments on your "lecture" to me (Post #29 > AV1611 Forums > Doctrine > "Salvation = faith + works?" > Page #3 > "George, George, George") where you "lectured" me as if I were a CHILD!

You may get by with that kind of conduct around your home, but I don't have to put up with it - not for a minute!

Let's take a look at some comments you have made:

"you will perhaps realize what I meant when I said that.When I speak of doctrine, off the top of my head"

{Men don't understand: "you will perhaps realize what I meant". I have no idea what you "mean". I don't want "doctrine" from "off the top of" YOUR "HEAD!" I require "SOUND DOCTRINE" - from the Holy Scriptures.}

"I'll give an example. What about the verse (1 Cor 14:34) where it says about women being silent in the church. For centuries, men have dissectedit to interpret that verse exactly how they see fit."

{I don't care a whit what MEN have done with the verse (or interpreted it) - WHAT DOES IT SAY?}
[1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.]

Now you can "dance around that verse and manipulate it; or take it out of context; or change it; or just ignore it - BUT, the verse either means what it SAYS or it doesn't. (I don't care how many MEN (or women) have messed with it). In the "context" of 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 {the "tongues" chapter of the Bible} - those verses either mean, that when it comes to "speaking in tongues" women should "keep silence in the churches" or that women shouldn't speak at all in the church. {Take your pick!}

"If one takes it literally, women really have no place in church, because after all women and men are to pray without ceasing. Let alone sing praises to God and hymns and psalms to one another in communication."

You "profess" to believe the Bible, but when you come up against verses that run up against "feminist doctrine" you "chuck" the verse and claim that it can't be taken "literally". If you can do that here - WHY NOT ANYWHERE? Hmmmm? And the verse DOES NOT say: "women really have no place in church" - that's your "private interpretation"; that's you taking a verse and twisting and wresting it and in the end making it say something other than what it said!

"Thereby, if one takes that verse literally, one cannot participate in church if they are a woman."

There you go again! "privately interpreting" the Holy Scriptures and making them say what you want them to say.

"My point, is there are some things we cannot understand or interpret properly because the exact intent or meaning has been lost."

Then why bother studying? Hmmm? Why does God command us to study His word if: "the exact intent or meaning has been lost." and we have no way of recovering it?

"Was even Paul saying that or addressing a question."

Are you questioning the "veracity" of the verses? Are you saying that maybe the verses don't even belong there? I thought you were a defender of the King James Bible? Where else can we safely "dispense" with Bible verses if they don't agree with our "private opinions"? Hmmm?

"Tons of commentaries out there with various opinions. We can analyze it, and know for example that in those verses, these women are to ask their husbands at home."

So this is how we are to "rightly divide the word of truth"? We inquire of the "commentators", and if they all don't "agree", then we can just decide for ourselves what God "meant" - since we are not going to accept what He said!

"First problem is that not all women have a husband. And then we discover that in the Greek, the word for women and wives is the same. So, are we talking about women who are married chattering with their husbands in church?"

Ah now we come to the crux of the matter! The first problem is - you don't really believe the King James Bible {As it is written and preserved for us}; and the second problem is you won't accept what it SAYS - if it runs "contrary" to what you already believe; and third you will run to other "authorities" - commentators; "the Greek" (Which one?); your own "private interpretations; etc., rather than accept the word of God as it is written in the King James Bible!

There is so much false teaching and leaven in your Post #29 > Doctrine > "Salvation = faith + works?" > "George, George, George", that it would take me another full page to exposit all of it. However, I will list just one small part to illustrate my point:

"Another point, is when I was a kid I believed in God; I got saved in a Baptist church as a teenager, but I did not know that Jesus died for me until I was in my twenties. Did my lack of knowledge disqualify me? {YES!} No, because although I was devoid of this precious information, I simply believed in Jesus. Jesus looks at the heart."

What "kind" of "Salvation" is it - that OMITS part of THE GOSPEL? I can say unequivocally that it is NOT BIBLE SALVATION!

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

Whatever you believed you did NOT believe the Gospel (according to the Scriptures). As a matter of fact, I could dissect practically every one of your Posts and demonstrate (over, and over, and over again) where you "personal opinions" not only don't line up with Scripture, but often runs contrary to it. But what's the use? You already know all there is to know; and refuse to take instruction (especially from men); and choose instead to try to "control" our speech and how we are to conduct ourselves on this Forum; and then "lecture" some of us if we don't "behave" just the way you want us to.

I leave you with this ADMONITION from the Apostle Paul (maybe you will accept these verses as being genuine.)

1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

[George]

Stephanos,

This is NOT a church {It's practically impossible to judge who is a true brother (or sister) in Christ and who is a false brother (or sister). And please don't give us this "false humility" and "lack of charity" and "hospitality" bit - we've heard it all before.

Practically every time that someone shows up on this Forum and starts to spout "false doctrine" you flock to their side and encourage them to continue. Why do you have such an "affinity" for "false teaching" and so much "tolerance" towards false teachers - Just exactly what is your problem?

Doxa actually puts out more false teaching than you do! {If that's possible} It doesn't take take "courage" to spread "false doctrine" and "leaven" - it takes either "ignorance" or "pride" {take your pick!}

[atlas]

Doxa,

I would like to ask you a few simple questions.

Have you ever read the Bible cover to cover?

How long have you been saved?


Atlas

[Renee]

Staph,

I see you are still around and not one of those who got banned. I also see the you still have my Lord carrying the cross. Do you even understand some of our post? Also here you are again giving encouragement to false doctrine.

And no I am not misspelling your name.

Renee

[atlas]

George,

I'm sure you have noticed that Stephanos is a very mild WWJD, and likes to stir the pot so to speak. Anytime anyone tries to spread odd teaching or false doctrine he is right there to lend a helping hand to any apostate or misled person.

Everyone who believes something false is not an apostate. I thought could lose it for a time after I was saved. That is what I was taught, I had to learn that eternal security was Bible doctrine and not just an excuse for sinning. It took me time to learn this, however I did not fight with everyone when they gave me what the Bible said about the issue.

I was raised in a non denominational church. It was about half Baptist about half old time Methodist, not like 99% of the crazy non denominational churches today. My old pastor who has been dead about 15 years and is in heaven no doubt about that in my mind. He was a good man that loved the Lord and tried to do the best he could. He prayed for me everyday that I would be saved and was always very kind to me and my family. After he died I went to a local IFB church and that is where I got saved and straightened out on a few issues. Some folks are like my old pastor and just a little messed up on a few things, however some wolves and false teachers.

My old pastor believed the Bible and never questioned it. He always used the KJV and was opposed to all other what he called " new Bibles. " He also lead many to the Lord and built good solid church. Men like him who did the best they could and lived the best they could and worked for the Lord the best they could always proved to me they knew the Lord and were saved. he is why when I was taught the Bible at the IFB church believed it. He taught me to believe the Bible and do what it says, not what some man or college says. He believed the Bible and taught us to believe the Bible also.

We had foot washings once a year for example. You and I both know this is really not a church ordinance. I know why we had them. It was in the Bible. Just like when anointed sick folks with oil. He would always quote James 5:14 he would sometimes say preachers that had healing service we out of the Bible. He always said unless the sick person requested the prayer that it was out of order.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

The word " him " was always talking about the sick person. My pastor did not understand that James was written for the Jews in the tribulation. I know that now, I had no idea about that then. he always did try to teach us the Bible for everything our church did. I have nothing but deep respect for men like Bro. Clyde Lane my old pastor. Those men may have missed the boat on a few issues, but men like him knew the Lord and did the best they could. He would never let anyone sale books, tapes or any item in our church. This was because of the money changers. When we had preachers drop by he would tell them they could not sale anything on church property. I myself agree with him on this issue to this day. I have never bought anything on any church property aver will. if I ever get called to preach and pastor a church I will hold this standard. To many people selling to much junk in our churches today. He tried to stick with the Bible on every issue he could find. I love and respect men like him. We need more men like him in the world today. Maybe he wrong on a few issues. Without him I do not think I'd be saved today. I am saying this from the bottom heart. I always respect men who try to preach and live by the Bible even if they are wrong on a few things.

There is a huge difference between men like my old pastor and many false teachers and deceivers. They are trying to get aways from the Bible, men like him always tried to stay in the Bible. They may not have always rightly divided the word, but they tried to say in the Bible.


Now what kind of person is Stephanos? I do not know if he is a wolf or just a man that is a wolf. I'm leaning towards wolf. Because he will agree with anyone that disagrees with the Bible. Those ears of his are getting more pointed every. I hope I am wrong on this issue. I hope Stephanos is not a wolf, but I would not let him near my hen house.


Atlas

[George]

Aloha brother Atlas,

I couldn't agree more with you if I could - Amen and amen to all that you said.

I personally believe that some of the old time believers who may not have had all their doctrine down (like we do ) are going to be seated much closer to the Lord at the marriage supper of the Lamb {because of their Love for the Lord and their Faithfulness in what they did know}, than some of us "smart alec's" who know sooo much, but are lacking in Love and Faithfulness! That's why I try real hard not to judge many of the brethren that have "gone on" before us.

That's one of many reasons why I am thankful for brother Tim (though we disagree on some things) and brother Forrest (Who I think has a real "handle" on the importance of Christians "Loving God" - something that I know is definitely lacking in my "walk").

God bless you brother - I always enjoy your Posts.

[Biblestudent]

Brother Atlas,
You mentioned about your "old pastor" and something about "wolves". Your post reminded me of:
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
It made me wonder what would happen to my church when I grow old and depart. May I be found a faithful "overseer" (Acts 20:28).
Thanks!
Biblestudent

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by George

What "kind" of "Salvation" is it - that OMITS part of THE GOSPEL? I can say unequivocally that it is NOT BIBLE SALVATION!

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

Aloha, Brother George!
I absolutely agree with you. A person who does not know or understand "that Christ died for our sins" does not know the gospel, and is therefore NOT SAVED.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: