[stephanos]

Originally Posted by atlas

Vendetta Ride,

Well buddy I can not even find the rest of the message. I do not even know what the name of it is. If you have it all send it to me I'll hear any man out.



I am very upset, I was blew away by the fact that he believes this crap. I would have never thought he would take this stand on the issue that abortion is not murder and base this on Gen 2:7 out of context. What he did say was very easy to understand.

This is a big issue brother. There have been many babies killed, 50,000,000 it the number. This is not a small issue brother. This is a deal.


Atlas

I just think you and others are hurt because it is Ruckman that said those things (that is, he should know better). Perhaps someone should let him know what he's done to the Church with his statements. I think if he were to realize the damage he's done, he might repent. Just and idea...

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[chette777]

Atlas,

I have written Dr Ruckman a few times and he will answer your honest inquirey. I suggest you write him include the quote and it sorce and let him give you his explanation.

I think you will find some how or another he is not suporting abortion and he may be able to clear up the whole mess for you.

I have his address on JoJo street there in Pensecola FL if you need it.

[George]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

I know how big the issue is. Several people in my own life (one in my own family) have been touched by it. It's horrible.

I don't know what sermon the clip comes from. The "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" stuff (his disproof of that theory) is in his Science and Philosophy book. And he's made an entire series of videos on Evolution, as you know.

Aloha brother Vendetta,

I too believe that brother Atlas has gotten only a part of what brother Ruckman believes about abortion. You went to his school and I am sure that you know him fairly well. I have known him since 1968 and have read at least 80 or more of his books over 40 years. {I read probably 90% of those books from 1968-1988}. I also had nearly his entire curriculum (from PBI 1970-73) on reel-to-reel tape; plus hundreds of hours of his preaching tapes (1970-73).

I met him in 1973 when he spent a week on Oahu and he spent more time with my family than he did with the preachers from the church (and he spent more time talking to our 6 year old daughter {Naomi} than he did anyone else!)

I am in agreement with you (and I have stated it before on this Forum) - I do not agree with everything that brother Ruckman teaches and would never justify any wrong doing on his part (if proven - not something taken out of context).

I've said all of this to testify: that in all of brother Ruckman's books, booklets, etc. that I have read; and in all of the preaching and teaching tapes that I have heard (minimum 3,000 hours); and in all the time that I spent with him when he came to Hawaii - I have NEVER read or heard him ever justify abortion! Nor have I ever read or heard him ever excuse it or make light of it!

I have read in several of his books and booklets where he has condemned abortion (in no uncertain terms)! Knowing brother Ruckman as I do, I know that he does not base his belief about abortion on just one verse (Genesis 2:7)!

It is this rush to condemn a fellow brother in Christ (before thoroughly examining the matter) that disturbs me and I cannot just stand idly by while there are some brethren who will condemn him without having the entire quote (in context) and all the rest of his testimony (from his books, etc.) on this issue.

If I was not engaged in moving from Hawaii (after 50 years here) I would be able to fully present my position on this issue (from the Scriptures) and give the scriptural reasons why I believe as I do. I posted some comments on man's "spirit" in order for the brethren to see that this issue is far more "complex" than just one verse from Genesis -which verse (or a portion) has been rejected "out of hand" by Atlas as applying to any of Adam's descendants without any other Scriptural support.

I have a hard time understanding the rejection of just "a portion" of this Scripture as applying to all of mankind, since it is one of the few Scriptures {along with 1Thessalonians 5:23} that clearly show the three parts (Substance) of man {body, soul, & spirit}. If - Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. - is true (And I don't doubt it for one minute), then why state "out of hand" that a portion of this Scripture applies only to Adam and not the rest of mankind (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.")? If, on the other hand, a portion of the Scripture (that man's "substance" consists of a body, soul, & spirit) is accepted? The question arises: If only a portion of this Scripture applies only to Adam - then WHY doesn't the rest (or all) of the verse apply only to Adam as well, and NOT the rest of mankind?

In order to even begin to understand when man becomes a living soul, or when he receives his spirit, a thorough study of all 134 verses about man's spirit; and the approximate 498 verses about man's soul must be searched out and compared. And not only that, but there must also be a comparison of the relation of breath & life; blood & life; and the word & life.

We need Scripture to base our beliefs on - NOT opinion! This subject is extremely complex and no one should be condemning anyone else, unless they can prove with Scriptures, that what a man believes is untrue or false.

I personally would never break fellowship with a brother in Christ if he held an opinion that differed with mine on this issue, UNLESS - someone taught that abortion was NOT a sin; or that it is an acceptable practice; or that the Bible approves of it: or that a child within the womb is "just a fetus", and not a person; or that God approves of it, etc.

To condemn a Christian because he believes (based on his scriptural understanding) that abortion is manslaughter instead of murder and to say that someone who holds that position must APPROVE of abortion is to "falsely accuse" that brother of something he does NOT believe!

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Forrest

The medical staff did their very best to stop my wife’s early labor; however, our sovereign God brought Sarah Beth forth from the womb 3 months early. I for one am grateful our Heavenly Father does not always answer our specific prayer requests. We fervently asked God to stop Paula’s labor. Logically we reasoned, “It’s too early.” Later we learned that there was a true knot in the umbilical cord and Sarah would have died had she not been born on God’s schedule.

Thread topic aside, this is a wonderful nugget all on its own. Praise God.

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by atlas

This is a big issue brother. There have been many babies killed, 50,000,000 it the number. This is not a small issue brother. This is a deal.
Atlas

The issue, in your words, is "Peter Ruckman stance on abortion."

As to that issue (thread topic), many have posted and assured you that Peter Ruckman is against abortion.

May I add that I've personally sat under his teaching on the very subject. He first (as always) informs everyone of what "the brethren" (atlas in this case, specifically) accuse him of teaching, and then expounds on what he really believes and teaches. These are often two different things (abortion and inspiration being probably the top two).

Now, you (many of you) do not agree with his teaching of when the baby becomes a living soul. That's understandable, and I don't fault you (any of you) for your belief. However, what is not acceptable is that you are suggesting that he is okay with the practice. He is not. Never has he recommended to two fornicating teenagers to "Go get an abortion, it's not murder." Yet this is how you are painting "the issue" - into another "issue."

The issue that you are essentially making is that Ruckman is for (pro) abortion. (???) You have already mentioned him being pro-abortion on another thread haven't you?

This suggestion about Dr. Ruckman is untrue - and that is the "issue" that you were starting the thread about.

Now you're talking about the millions of babies - which is not the issue. The issue is his stance.

His stance is that abortion is wrong and sin.
His stance is that it is no one's right to kill the unborn child.
His stance is that abortion is killing potential preachers and missionaries that God could use for His glory.

You may dissaggree with his view on a living soul, but the length that you are taking this to, with the aggressive nature of your posts on the topic, is wrong, you know, 100% wrong!!!

[Forrest]

Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

[peopleoftheway]

Heavenly Father, in these last days I pray not specifically Lord for revival, but for a HOLDING ON of the brethren, that the teaching of men whose falibility can damage a brother or sister in Christs faith, may swerve and avoid an apostate effect, Lord we all know that it is better to trust in the Lord than in man, we know that to seek Christ and Only Christ is our only option to not be swayed in the faith, for ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God and men dissapoint, but Christ does not, he cannot, he will not dissapoint, we Look to your coming, with eyes fastened on you Lord. I pray these things Father in the name of our Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

[Forrest]

And may I add,

Job 42:5-6 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

The issue, in your words, is "Peter Ruckman stance on abortion."

As to that issue (thread topic), many have posted and assured you that Peter Ruckman is against abortion.

May I add that I've personally sat under his teaching on the very subject. He first (as always) informs everyone of what "the brethren" (atlas in this case, specifically) accuse him of teaching, and then expounds on what he really believes and teaches. These are often two different things (abortion and inspiration being probably the top two).

Now, you (many of you) do not agree with his teaching of when the baby becomes a living soul. That's understandable, and I don't fault you (any of you) for your belief. However, what is not acceptable is that you are suggesting that he is okay with the practice. He is not. Never has he recommended to two fornicating teenagers to "Go get an abortion, it's not murder." Yet this is how you are painting "the issue" - into another "issue."

The issue that you are essentially making is that Ruckman is for (pro) abortion. (???) You have already mentioned him being pro-abortion on another thread haven't you?

This suggestion about Dr. Ruckman is untrue - and that is the "issue" that you were starting the thread about.

Now you're talking about the millions of babies - which is not the issue. The issue is his stance.[INDENT]His stance is that abortion is wrong and sin.
His stance is that it is no one's right to kill the unborn child.
His stance is that abortion is killing potential preachers and missionaries that God could use for His glory.

Excellent post, brother. The issue isn't abortion; on that, we are all agreed. (And, truth be told, Ruckman agrees.) It's Ruckman's stance. And we mustn't confuse the two.

Another point needs to be made, although it's painful: Ruckman is no longer a young man. I have heard recordings of Q and A sessions, made in the last year, where he's all over the place, chasing rabbit trails, in answering questions. By "all over the place," I simply mean that he'll get sidetracked, and long anecdotes from his sermons will kick in. Eventually, he answers the question, and he laughs about his own tendencies to get sidetracked.

He predicted, years ago, that in his later years, he might get to the point that Bob Jones Sr. got to: practically reciting sermons by memory. It's not nearly that bad yet; but we need to be aware of his limitations, just as we need to be aware of the limitations Sam Gipp's suffering has placed upon him. This is simple compassion - - - and, if the Lord tarries, "to this end we all will come."

VR that is a good point, I hate to think about Bro Pete getting that way but it's going to happen to all of us if God tarries...
from my post on the other forum...

Regarding the "soul thing"...
One of the few times that my old pastor and I both disagreed with Bro. Ruckman was on this issue.

I remember when Pete published his views about this many years ago in his paper. I love Dr. Ruckman, but I think he has greatly erred on this in the past. To be fair, he may have changed his views on it now, I don't know. Beyond a doubt, I have erred on far more issues myself than Bro. Ruckman ever has.

To the other charge, I have certainly never heard Ruckman "advocating" abortion, in fact I distinctly recall him stating that abortion is wrong, also from the same issue of the BBB.

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." Psalm 139:13-16

"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." Luke 1:15

"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost..." Luke 1:41