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  #61  
Old 03-21-2008, 11:47 AM
grace to me
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Diligent ,

So you're going to tell me that "all men" in verse 2:11 actually excludes the men spoken of in verses 1:10-16? That, despite the clear flow of the context, the "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" really means "all men except the ones mentioned earlier?"

chapter 1 starts out with Paul spaeking to Titus a believer telling him how to run the Church till towards the end of verse 9 .
Vs. 9 ends with convincing the gainsayers then vs. 10 starts with for connecting the two verses , verse 10 - 16 explain how to do that , they were false teachers , notice the change in what he was talking about in verses 1-9 and how at the end of verse 9 the subject changes to gainsaying and then he goes and explains what they were doing , verse 16 says they were abominable , reprobate , disobedient . chapter 2 verse 1 starts oout with the word but , contrasting what he had just expounded about the false teachers , chapter 2 verse 1-10 Paul reverts back to his original message of verse 1-9 of chapter 1 , chapter 2 verse 11 starts out with the word for , connecting verse 10 with verse 11 , the all spoken of here is the elect.
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  #62  
Old 03-21-2008, 11:57 AM
jerry
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You need to use quote tags in your reply - so it is obvious what are your words and what are the words you are quoting from the replies of others.

All men, means all in the world, all of mankind.

Last edited by jerry; 03-21-2008 at 11:59 AM.
  #63  
Old 03-21-2008, 01:38 PM
grace to me
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Originally Posted by jerry View Post
You need to use quote tags in your reply - so it is obvious what are your words and what are the words you are quoting from the replies of others.

All men, means all in the world, all of mankind.
jerry look in verse 14 of chapter 2 , the verses from verse 11-verse 14 are all conecting there are no contrasting words like but, ect. he gave himself for us , Paul is writting to Titus a fellow believer , that he might redeem us . if Jesus came to give everyone a chance to get saved then what do we do with verses like Rom. 9 or Paul our example that was saved on the damascus road in unbelief , or the verse that says that belief is Keeping a commandment ? If the Word of God is without contradiction which i believe it is , it all has to agree.
1 JN.3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
jim
  #64  
Old 03-21-2008, 01:53 PM
jerry
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Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

In this context, the "all men" is referring to all men in the world, the "us" is referring to believers. Just like this verse where every means everyone in the world:

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

All means all here:

1 Timothy 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
  #65  
Old 03-21-2008, 04:01 PM
grace to me
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We aren't under the law we don't keep commandments to get saved , its by grace if we say we have to believe to get saved we are under the law because as i stated earlier we are commanded to believe . our belief is a fruit of the Spirit , we don't believe to get saved , our belief is evidence that we are , did Paul our example believe or was he saved in unbelief ? when he believed , he manifested the evidence that he was saved , before he was persecuting Christians . If we say its by our faith that we are saved then grace is no more grace .
jim
  #66  
Old 03-21-2008, 04:34 PM
jerry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grace to me View Post
We aren't under the law we don't keep commandments to get saved,
No one ever did - the law was there to show we were sinners and could never fulfill all its requirements.

Quote:
we don't believe to get saved , our belief is evidence that we are
You just contradicted the Bible - again.

Ephesians 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The preaching of the Gospel came first, then their belief/trust in the Lord, then salvation (the sealing of the Holy Spirit).
  #67  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:53 PM
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Eternal security is a careless doctrine. From God's point of view, He offers it eternally. However, to say we can never lose our salvation is nonsense. Why so many warnings in the NT? The major cop-out is "well, he was never really saved in the first place". Oh,, no? Well, then who will he pray to next time? That "plucking out of the hand" scriptures says noting about someone walking out and away from God of their own free will. Do you really believe the Bible teaches that once you get saved, you can't decide to walk away, later? I had an atheist tell me he was a devoted Christian for a lot of years and he just decided it wasn't real and walked away. So, you say he wasn't saved in the first place? That is careless and presumptuous.

For every Scripture you produce to prove eternal security, I can find one that counters it.
I have listed the majority of verses that I have found in regards to "Salvation" on my web page: http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/ - under the section "Bible Lesson" ("Verses on Salvation").

There approximately 14 pages of verses indicating you can't lose it; and about 3 pages indicating that you can lose it. That's nearly 5 to 1 against your proposition.

I have produced the evidence for those of us who believe in the preservation of the saints - please produce (back up your claim: "For every Scripture you produce to prove eternal security, I can find one that counters it.") your evidence.

And why? WHY would anyone, who knows anything about our sinful nature ever think that we can "keep" our salvation? - if we could, then Christ has died in vain. WHY would anyone cling to the belief (hope?) that we can lose it?

My hope (only hope) is in the sacrifice and shed blood of my Lord. If what He did (By His sinless life & His death and His shed blood) is not enough to not only save me from my "past" sins, but from ALL my sins - then I am in "deep trouble" and so are you my friend.

If there is any man who has ever lived that has been able to thwart the eternal purposes of God then what you say would be true. But I know that no one has, or ever will be able to walk "out and away from God of their own free will".
2 Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

We are in the Father's hand and in the Son's hand and we have been "sealed" by the Holy Spirit of God - who is the man that can break that bond? NO ONE!
  #68  
Old 03-22-2008, 02:58 AM
grace to me
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1 JN.3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
jerry believing is keeping a commandment.

Do you agree with this verse , that believing is a commandment ?
jim
  #69  
Old 03-22-2008, 07:14 AM
jerry
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Yes, God has commanded all men everywhere to repent, He states we must be born again, we are told to obey the Gospel - so, yes, salvation comes by obeying what God has said about how to be saved.

But if you are trying to imply we are saved (and kept saved) by works or obedience to the Law, you are seriously misunderstanding the Bible.
  #70  
Old 03-22-2008, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry View Post
Yes, God has commanded all men everywhere to repent, He states we must be born again, we are told to obey the Gospel - so, yes, salvation comes by obeying what God has said about how to be saved.

But if you are trying to imply we are saved (and kept saved) by works or obedience to the Law, you are seriously misunderstanding the Bible.
if we say that salvation comes by obedience to commandment keeping then we are under the law and grace is no more grace , it becomes debt. do to get saved , we are not under the law , we don't do to get saved.
its not by works of righteousness which we have done . Paul is our example ,was he saved by his faith or by God's mercy ?
jim
 

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