[chette777]

KS,

read his Book "Black is Beautiful". he has some way out there ideas. but it makes for good reading. yes he believes the Govt has been in Kahoots with Satan and the devils who are disguising themselves as Aliens from another planet. the New Age have been contacting them all the time and they think it is aliens too.

[chette777]

for those who would like a refreshing view of the two kingdoms. Read Lewis Chafers book the Kingdoms in history and prophecy. Generally heavens were a created thing and referes to an Physical earthly kingdom, God is an uncreated person and his kingdom referes to a spiritual kingdom.

you must be born again as a jew to enter the Heavenly spiritual Kingdom of God. they already have the birth as Jews to enter the promised kingdom. hence born again to a jew.

[chette777]

Jerry for 1000 years unregenerated men will be living on the earth during the kingdom age. at the end Satan is loosed and the nations rebel. yes there will be sinners living in that kingdom. but before anyone gets into the eternal kingdom of God and the new heavens they will be judged (we are already there), then they must eat the leaves of the trees to heal their bodies and they drink of the river of life to get eternal life. Christians will already have new bodies and sinless minds and hearts. but those who come through the kingdom Age must prove themselves worthy to enter the eternal kingdom and that if in their hearts trully the come to Jerusalem and worship Jesus and bring the required oblation they can. Salvation in the Kingdom age is by works alone. I don't think many if any will but that is my opinion.

I don't understand, chette. How can anybody be saved by works in the millennium, when everybody else, including the OT saints, were saved by faith as Hebrews 11 says? It contradicts the whole message of God's word. Also, God barred the way to the tree of life in Eden so that sinners wouldn't eat of it and live forever -- but for some strange reason He will lift that ban in the millennium? Nothing in this scenario of the millennium you are giving makes any sense.

[George]

Originally Posted by Connie

I don't understand, chette. How can anybody be saved by works in the millennium, when everybody else, including the OT saints, were saved by faith as Hebrews 11 says? It contradicts the whole message of God's word. Also, God barred the way to the tree of life in Eden so that sinners wouldn't eat of it and live forever -- but for some strange reason He will lift that ban in the millennium? Nothing in this scenario of the millennium you are giving makes any sense.

Here is the Bible Definition of faith:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If the Lord Jesus Christ is ruling and reigning here on the earth in a physical, visible, earthly Kingdom - where does "faith" play a part? Where is the "hope" in "things not seen", if the Lord of Glory is dwelling on the earth? The people living on the earth during the Lord's reign are going to SEE him - "faith" is NOT involved if you can "see" the evidence!

[Biblestudent]

I think Hebrews 11:1 is just one of the definitions of faith. In fact, Hebrews 11 seems to emphasize the IMPORTANCE of faith rather than give the "only" definition of faith.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

1. Thomas BELIEVED because he has SEEN.
2. We BELIEVED, even if we have NOT SEEN.

God expects faith, whether you see the evidence or not. The problem with the Jews is they have SEEN Christ, but they WILL NOT BELIEVE. They have asked for SIGNS, they SAW the SIGNS, and yet they DID NOT BELIEVE.

[George]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

I think Hebrews 11:1 is just one of the definitions of faith. In fact, Hebrews 11 seems to emphasize the IMPORTANCE of faith rather than give the "only" definition of faith.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

1. Thomas BELIEVED because he has SEEN.
2. We BELIEVED, even if we have NOT SEEN.

God expects faith, whether you see the evidence or not. The problem with the Jews is they have SEEN Christ, but they WILL NOT BELIEVE. They have asked for SIGNS, they SAW the SIGNS, and yet they DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I agree brother that Hebrews 11 (the whole chapter) is dealing with the "importance" of faith. But, before God explains the "importance" of faith - he gives us the "Definition" of it (Verse 1) so we will not think or believe it is anything other than what He has "defined". Practically the whole Chapter deals with the issue of "by faith" (15 Verses), or "through faith" (5 verses).

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I have never seen God. I have never heard His audible voice. I have never seen Him perform miracles. And yet I believe He exists, yea and much more than that - I believe in Him and in His power to save; I believe in his Holy Word and in its power to change people's hearts and lives. I believe these things by "faith" - never having seen Him; heard Him; or seen Him perform miracles. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."[Hebrews 11:1]

If we can see - where is the "faith"? A person can believe because they see something - but that is not faith, it's believing by sight. The "Jews require a sign" - most of the Jews needed to see in order to believe (Thomas). But we are "blessed" because we believe by faith and not by sight!

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Thomas "saw" and believed. We have not seen, and yet we believe (by "faith"). Thomas believed by sight - we believe by "faith". There is a huge difference - and that is why we are blessed!

George, the point I meant to make about being saved by faith is that salvation is not by sight for anyone -- if people don't believe by the time Jesus comes back they are not going to be saved. I suppose I could be wrong about this but I don't see anything in scripture EXCEPT the statement that we are to be saved by faith and not by sight.

Faith tests us and conforms us to Christ and grows us in love of God, who is invisible Spirit. Anybody can believe who sees, like the devils believe, including people who hate God and haven't the slightest spiritual understanding. The spirit is invisible, can only be known by us who are still in the flesh of the "old man" through faith. When Jesus returns we will still know him through the spirit, though in a new and probably unimaginable way.

Also, even Thomas had to live by faith after Christ ascended. So did the first generation of the Israelites who had witnessed such miracles of God, yet they soon forgot and backslid. Seeing may have helped some have faith, but it doesn't always. It is the faith that matters, not the seeing. Thomas got faith by seeing, but he was saved by his faith. Seeing doesn't make us children of God, but faith does, because things unseen are what salvation is all about and faith is the substance of them while we are in this fallen flesh.

That's how I see it.

The reason I referred to Hebrews 11 was just to show that the Old Testament saints were also saved by faith rather than works or by sight.

[George]

Originally Posted by Connie

George, the point I meant to make about being saved by faith is that salvation is not by sight for anyone -- if people don't believe by the time Jesus comes back they are not going to be saved. I suppose I could be wrong about this but I don't see anything in scripture EXCEPT the statement that we are to be saved by faith and not by sight.

Faith tests us and conforms us to Christ and grows us in love of God, who is invisible Spirit. Anybody can believe who sees, like the devils believe, including people who hate God and haven't the slightest spiritual understanding. The spirit is invisible, can only be known by us who are still in the flesh of the "old man" through faith. When Jesus returns we will still know him through the spirit, though in a new and probably unimaginable way.

Also, even Thomas had to live by faith after Christ ascended. So did the first generation of the Israelites who had witnessed such miracles of God, yet they soon forgot and backslid. Seeing may have helped some have faith, but it doesn't always. It is the faith that matters, not the seeing. Thomas got faith by seeing, but he was saved by his faith. Seeing doesn't make us children of God, but faith does, because things unseen are what salvation is all about and faith is the substance of them while we are in this fallen flesh.

That's how I see it.

Thomas may have lived by "faith" after the Lord ascended, but he believed because he saw the Lord Jesus Christ. He refused to have faith; he refused to believe until he could actually see the Lord. He was saved by seeing the Lord - we are saved by faith in the Lord (Whom we have not seen).

The definition of faith in Hebrews Chapter 11:1 is perfectly clear and without any ambiguity - there is no seeing in faith, it is based solely on that which cannot be seen with the eyes, but which is believed on in the heart.