Diligent, I don't take anything anyone has said specifically about my arguments to be personal, I only take the personal comments as personal and the thread is full of them. And just as you say one can't read intent in this medium, I don't really feel all that offended as you think I am, I'm just calling it as I see it. But I certainly don't appreciate the atmosphere of continual personal comment in a discussion about an objective question of the meaning of scripture.

I do NOT "rely on" commentators, Diligent. In my original study I made GOOD use of them, dozens of them, in supporting my own personal reading of that scripture. That is the proper way to make a case for an interpretation of scripture, to acknowledge all the points of view on it you can find, and make your case for and against as you personally read it. I must have read and heard at least thirty commentators and preachers on the subject, in fact I'm sure in my original study I covered Clarke and Barnes too, because I covered all the commentaries on various internet Bible sites, but in their case I no doubt just tallied them up on the side of the head covering and against hair when I understood that was what they were saying, without quoting them, so I didn't remember what they said.

I agree with some commentators and disagree with others. I do think it is something to think about that there are no commentaries from before the 20th century that argue Paul meant long hair is the head covering. Yes, you are unfortunately wrong about Barnes and Clarke, they certainly did not say it was hair, and I honestly cannot see how you continue to think they did. I read them when you posted them and there is no other conclusion. You aren't going to listen to me, but maybe you'd think about a dozen men who agree with me. Or maybe not, but in any case there is no other way to argue this. I made my statement that the hair interpretation began recently and you answered with a couple of commentaries you think show me wrong and I answered back that they don't show that at all, but then I get criticized for answering you. What else am I going to do?

Yes, I consider some of you to have been engaging in accusation, personal accusation, which should have no part in this discussion. Three on this thread have made the subject matter personal instead of addressing the topic. People who don't know me and have no rightful authority over me. There is something very wrong with this.

For a second, consider that you are telling us that there is a rule that us/our wives are not obeying. Every onus is upon you to make your case, not the other way around. We are all quite satisfied that a woman's hair is her covering, and that additional covering is not necessary. If you think we are being disobedient, it is up to you to prove it.

Perhaps I've underestimated the degree to which YOU all have felt accused, but since I've been trying to stick to the objective matter and not accuse you personally, in fact gone out of my way to acknowledge that I figure you are being obedient according to your own light, I can't see that that excuses some from lashing out personally. That I'm suggesting they are wrong about a passage of scripture? Of course it would be hard to have to consider such a thing after a lifetime of thinking a different way. It could even hurt feelings. But what does that have to do with the objective facts involved? If you disagree then what's to take personally? I've been arguing the topic itself, but some of my opponents have chosen to attack me personally instead, which I guess is BECAUSE they disagree with me, but that's not the right way to go about it.

[JaeByrd]

This is my 6th post since we started this forum. My first being to pray and share with WhyIEyesYa regarding his prayer request. I find it humorous that you know so much about me and my intentions from so few posts. (I know a lot about you from the 10 times that number of posts you have made in half the time.)

Since you have assumed so much about me from so little here are a few truths about me.

I tend to focus on support for young wives dealing with infertility and child loss specifically, but marriage in general. Where I have found that what God has given us over the years has placed us in a position to help the hurting hearts of younger women (and men) who are questioning if God even hears or cares about them. Who as a young couple (sometimes in youth and almost always in years married) are struggling. The focus being the heart and faith in hard times and in marriage.

This is the ministry I focus on after my duties as a wife, mother and daughter. After supporting my husband in his ministries and work. (You can take that as more bragging if you wish, but its a simple statement of my order of priority.)

A role taught to me by my mother who was and is a Proverbs 31 kind of woman who follows the instructions in Titus.

Proverbs 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

This is where I come from and why. I deal in the realm given to us for our ministry and leave the doctrine instructing and most of all persuading to the husbands, fathers, and sons.

Originally Posted by Connie

Oh and how you love to brag about your good fortunes at my expense. Long hair you can sit on, brag brag brag, all pride.

You really do have a problem with reading comprehension. I was showing the flip side of my husband shaving his head. I also said why I grow it that long:

My hair ranges from middle of my back to the back of my knees. Once I start sitting on it (every 2-4 years) I grow it long enough to be able to donate 10-12" of my hair to be made into wigs for children/women going through chemotherapy (or other hair loss) and still have enough hair for myself that is unquestionably long hair.

To GIVE away to others who have no covering and who are ashamed. It is actually quite humbling to cut off a foot worth of hair and give my "glory" to another woman or child who has none. And in order to have hair that is by any one's standards of still being "long" and to donate like that it has to be really long. In your opinion that is pride and not service to another sister.

Your great good fortune in having a husband and a family. Good for you. Where's the Christian humility in anything you say?

You really are going to take offense at anything at this point aren't you? I was simply saying I'm done posting cause I had to go.

FYI it isn't a secret that Diligent and I have dealt with infertility for most of our 14 years of being married. That we have one child. That after 8 1/2 years of praying and hoping God blessed us with a second child which 4 weeks ago tomorrow we lost to miscarriage. But I guess that is just me bragging on my good fortune.

You might give people the benefit of the doubt before assuming everything is an attack on you.

Another FYI before you ask why don't we just adopt? Because its at least $20-30k, weeks of classes and other things, and waiting lists are very long because very few children born out of wedlock these days are actually put up for adoption anymore. This is a plain fact. Not an accusation.

And I'm quite sure something if not all of what I've said is going to get your non-Irish-Irish-temper up. Funny thing is I actually *am part Irish* with the temper to boot... and despite the fact that you have basically insulted my husband, my father, my mother and myself. I'm not angry or upset in any way.

OK, George, I guess it would be more spiritual of me just to announce that the scripture says what I say it says and not what you say it says, but since I muster arguments that makes me a humanist. Paul mustered arguments himself in that passage, maybe half a dozen different arguments depending on how one counts.

. . . you are extremely argumentative and when people dispute your beliefs or refuse to believe what you believe you take it personal and lash out and make these unwarranted and unfounded accusations against the brethren here on this site.

You are wrong, I have NOT taken anything personal when the argument itself is addressed, except when one young guy came on slinging comments without regard to anything that came before, which is really rude. Otherwise I've stuck to the facts and only objected to the personal comments, and considering the provocation very little as a matter of fact, in my opinion. But all you are doing is denying that there is any provocation etc etc etc.

You don't think calling me a "humanist" is about the worst accusation a person could make? It's like calling someone a heretic, which seems to be done around here quite frequently and unjustly in my opinion. "Beth" drove two pentecostals off the board with that accusation, very unfairly in my opinion and I'm completely against the pentecostal/charismatic movement, and I didn't see you getting on her case.

And I did think you were out of this discussion as you said you were. I've been answering new people who have entered.

JaeByrd, I said nothing except in response to things you ACTUALLY said, and implied nothing beyond that. Perhaps you are unaware of what you actually said to me and how you said it. I am sorry for your loss, but all I knew was what you actually said to me. And I'm sorry, much as I honor your good works, TALKING about them is not the thing to do, and it does come off as bragging, sorry.

[JaeByrd]

Originally Posted by Connie

JaeByrd, I said nothing except in response to things you ACTUALLY said, and implied nothing beyond that. .

Talking about how I brag about my hair and my good fortune and calling me prideful is not implying something about me? I did not make this personal. There were a LOT of things I could have said if I had wanted to get personal.

Clarifying your mistake in assuming things that you knew nothing about me is further bragging?

Let me make it very clear what I am saying and why I said what I said:

As one woman to another woman. Stop preaching to the men and stick with the realm of women as you should. The men have already refuted you on your issues. The women have rejected you and pointed out the rightful place of a woman in teaching. Teaching other women.

This is my last post on the subject as my husband has told me it isn't worth my time. He is right. You are convinced in your custom (which we are more than happy to leave you with), but will continue ad nauseam to refute and push your custom as the right one onto everyone else in the forum.

Both sides have been presented for anyone else to read and make their own choice. I see no further reason to continue debating.

[Renee]

Jaebyrd,
Your reply to Connie in Post 95 was wll done. You would warm the heart of many mothers.

Yes, you did make this personal, from your very first comments, but it doesn't matter.

As one woman to another woman. Stop preaching to the men and stick with the realm of women as you should. The men have already refuted you on your issues. The women have rejected you and pointed out the rightful place of a woman in teaching. Teaching other women.

Yes, that is what you were saying without saying it. It comes down to "I'm doing things right, I'm better than you, I have glorious hair I can sit on, I know how to live the Christian life as a woman right and you don't" and your daughter added further personal insinuations, all of which apparently you think a perfectly OK thing to say to a perfect stranger who has done nothing to give you reason for your opinion except defend my view of a part of scripture. I still want to know why nobody has found fault with Beth for arguing with men here. Why just me? No, I don't want to know. I don't want to know anything from anybody any more. Examine your own heart for a change, including why you congratulated your daughter in front of me instead of in private.

The men's refutations are wrong and the women are all related to them.

[Renee]

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
Connie,
I thought I was giving a soft answer, I"m sorry it was taken as grevious words.

I was the one bragging that I could sit on my hair.

When you work on a farm (sometime in thigh deep mud, running a 12 horse tiller) it is a pain to keep long hair. I have kept my hair long at the request of my husband. I have trimmed it when necessary but have not cut it for 47 years. Many a time I have almost cut it out of rebelion. I glory in my long hair, proud that My Lord has given me a glorious head of hair for a covering. Like I said in another post.(when I comended you on your hair length) most women our age have hair above their ears.

JaeByrd knows me well and knows (even though you doubt it) that the scriptures I quoted came from the desire that women obey the Lord in our ministery.

This will be my last post in this thread, and again I repeat: do what you want with your glory. It is between you and the Lord.
.
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Looking toward the Glorious apearing of Our Lord of Glory.

If anyone will reread my post 91, especially the bolded parts of the quotes, I would think you couldn't have any doubt that both Clarke and Barnes understand Paul to be advocating a cloth head covering and not hair as a woman's only covering, so that my statement that the hair interpretation didn't get started until the 20th century still stands.

I may be argumentative, but I'm also right about this.