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  #11  
Old 07-18-2009, 02:51 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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What is your view of believers that died on 9/11 in New York? Are they judged as a result of not dieing in a good manner? They were burned, so I ask, was that an act of God's wrath?
Oh I am sorry. I didn't know we were talking about the sin of dying in a fire. Yes, they should have chose a better way to die.

Please! Let's not confuse the question by bringing ridiculous and fantastic side issues. Of course I don't think someone that DIES via a house fire or explosion or any such thing as wrong!? Is that what it sounded like I said?
No, I don't think so. I was referring to people who CHOSE to be cremated rather than buried.

I am also not saying I think it is "wrong" or a "sin" to cremate. I was only giving him some thoughts to consider.

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Is there any "condemnation" or "judgment" from God whenever a person chooses cremation?
Hmmm...no not that I can find. But I was trying to answer the original question, not yours.

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So is there scripture or scripture in type that one can offer on not to be cremated or does it even matter............?
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Apply New Covenant theology to the question on cremation not Old Testament examples that are not written to us in the first place. Divide the word of truth, don't harmonize it.
Not exactly what you mean here, but ok? I wasn't "applying" anything...just offering him the Scriptures I felt dealt with the topic.
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  #12  
Old 07-18-2009, 02:55 PM
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So, then, according to the Bible, you believe that the Lord will not resurrect those who have gone against what you feel is His teaching from the Bible regarding burial? He will REJECT those people as not doing His clear will?
What!? Please quote me where I said that.


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What should people do if they cannot afford burial expenses?
Frankly I don't care what they would do. I am trying to give WingWiper things to consider in his search for "the" answer...if there is one.

I said and I quote "for me" I would not choose cremation.
  #13  
Old 07-18-2009, 03:06 PM
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On further reflection there is more here that was erroneous:

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you believe that the Lord will not resurrect those
Never was said.


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His teaching from the Bible regarding burial?
I said there was no teaching specifically, just example.

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He will REJECT those people
Certainly never said that.


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His clear will?
Nope, not a clear will. Don't think I said that either. There IS a clear example. But not a clear will or commandment.
  #14  
Old 07-18-2009, 03:20 PM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
So, then, according to the Bible, you believe that the Lord will not resurrect those who have gone against what you feel is His teaching from the Bible regarding burial? He will REJECT those people as not doing His clear will?
I didn't see anyone claim anything like that. I don't understand what was said that would lead you to that conclusion.

The Bible only shows God's people being buried. We look forward to having our bodies resurrected and glorified. Of course God can put all the right parts together even if my body is vaporized in a nuclear explosion, but because I trust in the promise of resurrection, I want my body buried in honor and recognition of the work God intends to do, not burned to ashes as if my body has no future use.

I don't see any Scriptures indicating it is a sin to have your body cremated, so there's nothing to be dogmatic about here either way.
  #15  
Old 07-18-2009, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
Oh I am sorry. I didn't know we were talking about the sin of dying in a fire. Yes, they should have chose a better way to die.

Please! Let's not confuse the question by bringing ridiculous and fantastic side issues. Of course I don't think someone that DIES via a house fire or explosion or any such thing as wrong!? Is that what it sounded like I said?
No, I don't think so. I was referring to people who CHOSE to be cremated rather than buried.

I am also not saying I think it is "wrong" or a "sin" to cremate. I was only giving him some thoughts to consider.

Hmmm...no not that I can find. But I was trying to answer the original question, not yours.

Not exactly what you mean here, but ok? I wasn't "applying" anything...just offering him the Scriptures I felt dealt with the topic.
Here is exactly what you wrote, Amanda.

Quote:
The typology is planting a seed. A farmer does not destroy his seed before planting (cremation), yet he plants it whole (burial). The seed (body) decays naturally in which comes a new life (resurrection).

Also, could we consider the instances where a body was burned up as an act of God's wrath and not a good thing.

This Scripture appears to say here that it is a transgression:

Quote:
1 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:
I highlight your words.

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Also, could we consider the instances where a body was burned up as an act of God's wrath and not a good thing.

This Scripture appears to say here that it is a transgression:
Amanda, you brought up the issue of "instances where a body was burned up as an act of God's wrath and not a good thing". The Old Testament example you gave has absolutely nothing to do with us.

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You wrote: Not exactly what you mean here, but ok? I wasn't "applying" anything...just offering him the Scriptures I felt dealt with the topic.
You wrote, "I wasn't "applying" anything...just offering him the Scriptures I felt dealt with the topic." Okay. I will validate your feelings. But your attempt to use scripture as a way to support why we should bury not cremate is wrong. This is what is meant by trying to harmonize the word of truth instead of rightly dividing the word of truth. We should:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

When we attempt to use scripture that has nothing to do with us concerning the choices we make regarding cremation, we are not rightly dividing the word of truth, we are attempting to make it harmonize instead, in order to rally support of a particular view point or the way we feel about something.

You certainly have a right to your personal preference. You think we should follow the Biblical pattern of burial. Be sure and study up on the Jewish burial custom so you can follow their example. But it is wrong to use scripture out of context that is not addressing us in the first place.

You wrote:

Quote:
Of course I don't think someone that DIES via a house fire or explosion or any such thing as wrong!? Is that what it sounded like I said?
No, I don't think so. I was referring to people who CHOSE to be cremated rather than buried.
Amanda, please read my question to you carefully. If you fully believe a person is not wrong for dieing via a house fire or explosion or any such thing, then what difference does it make if someone chooses cremation? You brought that up, not me. Why not just say, if you choose cremation you are in no way wrong.
  #16  
Old 07-18-2009, 04:20 PM
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So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? ~ {1 Corinthians 15:54,55}

What a blessing to know that corruptible shall put on incorruption...no matter what state the dead have parished or how they're layed to rest...what matters is that death has no sting and the grave has no victory.

Lord...bring on that incorruption soon!
  #17  
Old 07-18-2009, 04:33 PM
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I think the issue we're discussing here isn't if God can resurrect ashes as opposed to dust. The question is whether we as christians are subject to the rudiments of the world, and the shadows of things to come, or are we the spiritual fulfilment of these things in Christ?

Amanda's
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But considering what the Bible has to say, if anything about a certain topic. We should do that with any decision we make. While we may have our liberty as Christians to do as we please in this matter, it is a good thing to compare Scripture with Scripture. The Bible is not completely silent on this matter...The example is there. You will not find a positive Scripture verse in regards to a body being burned.
My concern is that we consider what the Bible has to say specifically about rightly dividing, if we don't then we can subtlely bring ourselves back under the law.

Amanda's
Quote:
As Wingwiper stated it is a stumbling block for a lot of Christians. For me that is also a good reason to avoid cremation. Perhaps it is ok to cremate, but I feel we should use our Christian liberty to not be a stumbling block to a weaker brother.
I believe Paul takes a hard stand against christians turning back again to bondage to the law or to the weak and beggerly elements.

Galatians 4:1-11
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a

servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the

time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in

bondage under the elements of the world
: But when the fulness of the

time was come
, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under

the law,

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the

adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of

his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a

servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Howbeit

then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are

no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of

God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye

desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and

years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.


Amanda, you are right when you say we should not use our liberty to cause weaker brothers and sisters to stumble. But I believe you agree it is when we recognize we have only Christ's righteousness, not our own by fulfilling any law, that can we really manifest Christ's love for each other and the lost.


Windpiper's
Quote:
However.......knowing the heathen religions out there practice cremation-- Hinduism, etc. who burn the body because they believe in reincarnation, yet knowing at the same time I can't find anything doctrinally that would cause a Christian not to.

Comparing spiritual things with spiritual things it is evident that God's people practiced burial which would be an example, although not a commandment.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
I think arguing that since the heathen practice cremation and Israel practiced burial therefore christians should follow the example of Israel's practices is not comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. These things are shadows and similitudes and pagan practices.

Paul doesn't teach that we are to live by these ensamples, shadows of things to come. We are to learn from them.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

That said, I would definitely choose burial for myself and my loved ones. I agree with Amanda that I choose, in the liberty that I have in Christ, to follow the example of the children of Israel and the people of God that came before. I think the burning of a body is symbolic of God's judgement and I want no part of that even if it is symbolic. But that is just my personal conviction and I don't apply it to any other christian.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Last edited by greenbear; 07-18-2009 at 04:44 PM.
  #18  
Old 07-18-2009, 05:08 PM
Amanda S.'s Avatar
Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Here is exactly what you wrote, Amanda.

Quote:
The typology is planting a seed. A farmer does not destroy his seed before planting (cremation), yet he plants it whole (burial). The seed (body) decays naturally in which comes a new life (resurrection).

Also, could we consider the instances where a body was burned up as an act of God's wrath and not a good thing.

This Scripture appears to say here that it is a transgression:

Quote:
1 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:
I highlight your words.

Quote:
Also, could we consider the instances where a body was burned up as an act of God's wrath and not a good thing.

This Scripture appears to say here that it is a transgression:
Amanda, you brought up the issue of "instances where a body was burned up as an act of God's wrath and not a good thing". The Old Testament example you gave has absolutely nothing to do with us.
Yes, I know what I wrote. But what I wrote was in the context of cremation. When kept in the context what I said has nothing to do with burning in general. If you wanted to apply it accross the board then we could say that the burning of the body of an animal is a transgression as well. We know it's not. So let me clarify myself.

Also, could we consider the instances where a body was burned after death as in cremation as an act of God's wrath and not a good thing?

There should also have been a question mark. I am not stating a fact just asking could we consider that verse as well.

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The Old Testament example you gave has absolutely nothing to do with us.
Perhaps it doesn't. That's why I asked.

Quote:
When we attempt to use scripture that has nothing to do with us concerning the choices we make regarding cremation, we are not rightly dividing the word of truth, we are attempting to make it harmonize instead, in order to rally support of a particular view point or the way we feel about something.
Agreed. But I would like to think rather that I was considering

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
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You think we should follow the Biblical pattern of burial. Be sure and study up on the Jewish burial custom so you can follow their example.
No thank you. The Biblical pattern will be sufficient.

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Why not just say, if you choose cremation you are in no way wrong.
I guess I could. But I thought WingWiper wanted to share discourse on this topic. I can't honestly say that I think it is "in no way wrong" but neither can I say it is right thing to do. Forgive however for offering my personal preference. I obviously should have kept that to myself.
  #19  
Old 07-18-2009, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: "1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and thoug"

Brother Forrest said:
Quote:
"When we attempt to use scripture that has nothing to do with us concerning the choices we make regarding cremation, we are not rightly dividing the word of truth, we are attempting to make it harmonize instead, in order to rally support of a particular view point or the way we feel about something."
Aloha brother Forrest,

I'm with you on this one. I do not think that it is wrong to have your body cremated. I "prefer" not to, but that is my "preference".

What do we do with:
Quote:
1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
I profess that I do not fully understand what the Apostle Paul is getting at here in 1 Corinthians, but it seems to me that the Apostle Paul had NO OBJECTIONS to cremation (and there may have been some "charitable" act involved in cremation ) - so that's "good enough for me".
  #20  
Old 07-18-2009, 05:29 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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What do we do with:
Quote:
1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
I profess that I do not fully understand what the Apostle Paul is getting at here in 1 Corinthians, but it seems to me that the Apostle Paul had NO OBJECTIONS to cremation (and there may have been some "charitable" act involved in cremation ) - so that's "good enough for me".
Ok that totally made me laugh out loud

Is this not obviously referring to offering yourself as a sacrifice?!

I can just see Paul..."Though I cremate my body it profiteth me nothing"
 

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